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Sunday Sacrilege- I Must've Missed That...
Good Morrow to you, lovely watcher! I hope you're doing well this fine rainy-wet morning for our SUNDAY FUNDAY together, yes? Before we head out to EInstein's Bagels for our weekly art-day I thought I'd get in a little time with you beautiful people and share a thought or two on a point which has been kind of pain in my tuchus since the age of reason.
So, many times in discussion when a person demands a source of authority for a position, the party being questioned will cite an old standby, "Because god said so". Pick your topic, issue or circumstance, most any will do. A person may say "homosexuality is immoral and should be illegal". A person may question this rather extreme perspective, "Why would you say that? What moral authority are you claiming?". Either immediately or after a series of back and forth, the "believer" will fall back upon "Well, because god said so".
Once upon a time, I will admit, such a statement might have made a certain amount of sense. A few thousand years ago when xenophobic, isolated iron-age nomads and tribals waged war upon each other all across the globe, knowledge was incredibly limited. An advanced scholar of a group might have access to the materials many of us were given in our grade school years. The average Joe might just accept this excuse as a given. There was, after all, only one "god" and everyone knew it was real, right? Even just a few centuries ago, in the "dark ages" or "medieval" times, literacy was at a premium and again, many people were isolated geographically and had been raised in ignorance to fear "the other" and the dangers it represented. Again, everyone knew there was their "god" and it's word was law...
*head tilts* -but now, beautiful watchers? *smiles* With the entire planet mapped out, viewable by satellite in real-time, instant communication possible between people from opposite sides of the globe, thousands of years of languages, cultures and history at our fingertips from the perspective of almost countless civilizations, why in the sweet, sweaty ballbag of Bellerophon would anyone buy this nonsense argument, much less try to offer it? "'God' said? When? Which 'god'? Yours? Mine? My husband's? He has a goddess, are you sure? When was this? I must've missed that memo.... " With knowledge of the creation myths of so many cultures from across the globe, so much history and colour at our fingertips, doesn't it seem a little arrogant to even offer this argument to another person? To assume that the stranger wouldn't hold to a different belief, if any belief at all? "Who said that homosexuality was bad? The Buddha? Brahma? Freya? Hathor? Basst? Captain Picard?I need a bit more clarification on this point, please..." *snofts*
The whole of it seems a bit daft for my money. *sets her chin* The whole "citing one unknowable fiction as a source of moral authority over-ruling any other fictional beings' authority", lovely watcher.... not that Captain Picard could be 'God'. We all know that's true already*snickers*... right?
Have a good day, sweet sexy beasties. Pick your superstition and enjoy your time here. Just remember that there are literally hundreds of other all-powerful, unknowable infinities in the world and everyone else also KNOWS that they're just as right as you are. We may get to spend a little more time together this eve, some bonus sacrilege, maybe a surprise gift or two, who knows? *titters* One world for us all and one love to share. *blows a kiss*
So, many times in discussion when a person demands a source of authority for a position, the party being questioned will cite an old standby, "Because god said so". Pick your topic, issue or circumstance, most any will do. A person may say "homosexuality is immoral and should be illegal". A person may question this rather extreme perspective, "Why would you say that? What moral authority are you claiming?". Either immediately or after a series of back and forth, the "believer" will fall back upon "Well, because god said so".
Once upon a time, I will admit, such a statement might have made a certain amount of sense. A few thousand years ago when xenophobic, isolated iron-age nomads and tribals waged war upon each other all across the globe, knowledge was incredibly limited. An advanced scholar of a group might have access to the materials many of us were given in our grade school years. The average Joe might just accept this excuse as a given. There was, after all, only one "god" and everyone knew it was real, right? Even just a few centuries ago, in the "dark ages" or "medieval" times, literacy was at a premium and again, many people were isolated geographically and had been raised in ignorance to fear "the other" and the dangers it represented. Again, everyone knew there was their "god" and it's word was law...
*head tilts* -but now, beautiful watchers? *smiles* With the entire planet mapped out, viewable by satellite in real-time, instant communication possible between people from opposite sides of the globe, thousands of years of languages, cultures and history at our fingertips from the perspective of almost countless civilizations, why in the sweet, sweaty ballbag of Bellerophon would anyone buy this nonsense argument, much less try to offer it? "'God' said? When? Which 'god'? Yours? Mine? My husband's? He has a goddess, are you sure? When was this? I must've missed that memo.... " With knowledge of the creation myths of so many cultures from across the globe, so much history and colour at our fingertips, doesn't it seem a little arrogant to even offer this argument to another person? To assume that the stranger wouldn't hold to a different belief, if any belief at all? "Who said that homosexuality was bad? The Buddha? Brahma? Freya? Hathor? Basst? Captain Picard?I need a bit more clarification on this point, please..." *snofts*
The whole of it seems a bit daft for my money. *sets her chin* The whole "citing one unknowable fiction as a source of moral authority over-ruling any other fictional beings' authority", lovely watcher.... not that Captain Picard could be 'God'. We all know that's true already*snickers*... right?
Have a good day, sweet sexy beasties. Pick your superstition and enjoy your time here. Just remember that there are literally hundreds of other all-powerful, unknowable infinities in the world and everyone else also KNOWS that they're just as right as you are. We may get to spend a little more time together this eve, some bonus sacrilege, maybe a surprise gift or two, who knows? *titters* One world for us all and one love to share. *blows a kiss*
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A "little" arrogant? My dear, it's quite preposterously pompous. I said before and will say again that the entire point of religion is to make people into better people, give them a moral compass, add a little something to balance out all that tribal aggression and prevent them from being horrible irredeemable savages. But it takes a certain kind of person for that to be the case as well. There's a point at which you, as a person, understand right and wrong with or without religion. Or at least, you SHOULD. Some folks, as you've clearly pointed out, do not. Instead they're fed the mentality that they must follow these rules, or else. And if THEY have to follow them, they assume that everyone else has to adhere to the same rules. These people don't have the insight to make their own judgement, they'd rather have their outlook given to them, maybe because it's just easier that way or because they're afraid. Either way, it's not only unhealthy but it is as you said very arrogant to pretend that all people in this world should and will agree to comply to your rulebook, which in the Bible's case was in fact written not by God but rather by several guys, kings, politicians, who chopped out the parts they didn't like, scrabbled the thing back together, and I'm pretty sure Ned got coffee stains all over Proverbs. Way to go Ned. Regardless, you don't need Gods or rules to be a good person. You just need love.
That's a pretty good take on it, love.
As many before me have pointed out, it's an odd enough thing to do, in and of itself, quoting the authority of a fiction as your own. *smirks* I suppose I could do the same thing sometime with Doctor Octopus, maybe... *shrugs* but with the knowledge available to practically anyone these days it seems particularly bloody arrogant, not to mention stupid.
Considering the current "religious freedom" bills at play in many states, some folkes could theoretically gt away with some really crazy shit... *smiles broadly* I can't deny that there's a part of me waiting with a awkward sense of impending horror tinged with intrigue to see the first bizarre act of public nudity or willing human sacrifice hit Fox News and see how that goes over.
As many before me have pointed out, it's an odd enough thing to do, in and of itself, quoting the authority of a fiction as your own. *smirks* I suppose I could do the same thing sometime with Doctor Octopus, maybe... *shrugs* but with the knowledge available to practically anyone these days it seems particularly bloody arrogant, not to mention stupid.
Considering the current "religious freedom" bills at play in many states, some folkes could theoretically gt away with some really crazy shit... *smiles broadly* I can't deny that there's a part of me waiting with a awkward sense of impending horror tinged with intrigue to see the first bizarre act of public nudity or willing human sacrifice hit Fox News and see how that goes over.
In Hungary, the "god said so" is almost the same as "this is natural". It can be that for 700 years (with a few short pauses), everyone was a christian AND under some rule. Moral authority = political authority - which also meant that after the 1300s, god and his priests were doing what the lords and kings said, not the other way around.
Spoiler alert for anyone not knowing history - this was when the French King chosen his own pope. About 50 years later, the semimodern islam was made - the one where the political and religious powers were in one hand, and not separated, thanks to the sultan deciding that he really know the book better than the priests... and anyone not nodding their heads may just have it lopped off.
Also, weapon ownership was banned, then reintroduced, and ever dince the Prussian system is on (middle of the 1800s), it doesn't even matter - theoretically, i could buy an aircraft carrier, if I am willing to pay the taxes, present the legal documentation and can keep it up. Which is for 99,9% of the Hungarian populace is "can not". :3
Spoiler alert for anyone not knowing history - this was when the French King chosen his own pope. About 50 years later, the semimodern islam was made - the one where the political and religious powers were in one hand, and not separated, thanks to the sultan deciding that he really know the book better than the priests... and anyone not nodding their heads may just have it lopped off.
Also, weapon ownership was banned, then reintroduced, and ever dince the Prussian system is on (middle of the 1800s), it doesn't even matter - theoretically, i could buy an aircraft carrier, if I am willing to pay the taxes, present the legal documentation and can keep it up. Which is for 99,9% of the Hungarian populace is "can not". :3
Ahhh... "this is natural"... a mutation of "because it's natural/un-natural"... what a wonderful little gem which, for some bizarre reason, so many people with no decent argument to support their behaviour STILL fall back to to this day. With human beings being the most un-natural creature on the planet, involving technology and human-invented superstitions and traditions from before we are even conceived, that's another absolutely bizarre bit of taff to hear.
A good bit of history to bring up, love. The odd relation between religion and government has long horrified me but I would love to sit down with you sometime over a doughnut and hear your perspective on such.
A good bit of history to bring up, love. The odd relation between religion and government has long horrified me but I would love to sit down with you sometime over a doughnut and hear your perspective on such.
You bring up a great point, love.
Just the other day, I was feeling hungry. I prayed to myself that my empty belly be filled and my minor discomfort be alleviated. I heard my prayers and, being a benevolent deity, arose from yon couch, journeyed to ye kitchen and conjured forth a can of Progresso™ brand Tomato Soup with Basil.
And yea, mine hunger subsided. *sighs* My god, she is an awesome god, indeed...
Just the other day, I was feeling hungry. I prayed to myself that my empty belly be filled and my minor discomfort be alleviated. I heard my prayers and, being a benevolent deity, arose from yon couch, journeyed to ye kitchen and conjured forth a can of Progresso™ brand Tomato Soup with Basil.
And yea, mine hunger subsided. *sighs* My god, she is an awesome god, indeed...
Not sure of your wording here but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, love.
Often, many self-proclaimed 'gun enthusiasts' offer up the "god-given right" as their knee-jerk reaction to any proposed legislation or law, whereas health care is somehow an issue out of (their) god's hands.
I'm not sure if you're familiar with them or not but for an unusually frightful take on that notio, look no further than "the order(or church) of the iron rod". Them's some nutters.
Often, many self-proclaimed 'gun enthusiasts' offer up the "god-given right" as their knee-jerk reaction to any proposed legislation or law, whereas health care is somehow an issue out of (their) god's hands.
I'm not sure if you're familiar with them or not but for an unusually frightful take on that notio, look no further than "the order(or church) of the iron rod". Them's some nutters.
But got was afraid of iron chariots and some iron swords was unblessed and nonblessableby that one god... If i recall well, the entire "Rome could kick you all because they had iron" hing is there too. Now, that means that guns would frighten god, because unlike swords, they can not be used as crosses either, lacking a crosshandle and a pommel.
Also, isn't that gun ownership thing superfluous ever since the 1860s?
But it is just the POV of a Hungarian, where everyone fought everyone with everyone with everything they had, until someone came around and kicked down both of them, usually by superior bargaining positions amd industrial capacity.
Also, isn't that gun ownership thing superfluous ever since the 1860s?
But it is just the POV of a Hungarian, where everyone fought everyone with everyone with everything they had, until someone came around and kicked down both of them, usually by superior bargaining positions amd industrial capacity.
Many people do not understand (or do not want to admit - to you, or perhaps themselves) their true thought process.
1. Decide what you think is right and wrong.
2. Find something to justify it (usually The Bible).
In order to defend 1, how they actually decided what was right, they direct all debate and energy at the authority (usually God) justifying it. It becomes an incredibly useful shield, and while you are busy debating, they are passing laws, throwing rocks at people. If you can crack the armor and get at their decision-making process, it's often too simple, a short track of circular reasoning "It's wrong because it's wrong!" but boy, does that make them really, Really angry, like a wounded animal stabbed through some sort of exoskeleton.
1. Decide what you think is right and wrong.
2. Find something to justify it (usually The Bible).
In order to defend 1, how they actually decided what was right, they direct all debate and energy at the authority (usually God) justifying it. It becomes an incredibly useful shield, and while you are busy debating, they are passing laws, throwing rocks at people. If you can crack the armor and get at their decision-making process, it's often too simple, a short track of circular reasoning "It's wrong because it's wrong!" but boy, does that make them really, Really angry, like a wounded animal stabbed through some sort of exoskeleton.
Sometimes I would like to kiss you, love.
My family has heard me say this many times, how most people who claim to be 'christian' really aren't. They're just following a social group, as most of us do, and following whatever norms it provides them which they find convenient enough in their culture and social circles to justify to themselves. "Beating your children to death for disagreeing with you"? Well, that's old testament, so it doesn't matter now. "sending a woman out of town because it's that time of the month"? Also, old testament so, we don't have to follow that. "enslaving the people of neighboring nations"? Oh, you silly sod, that's all old testament and doesn't apply to us hip, modern godly believers. The "ten commandments"? Well, of course those matter, sure and don't you dirty atheists dare try to get our monument off the courthouse lawns!
... even though they are also old testament and- this is when the fingers pop into the ears amid singing of "LA-LA-LA-LA-LAH!"
My family has heard me say this many times, how most people who claim to be 'christian' really aren't. They're just following a social group, as most of us do, and following whatever norms it provides them which they find convenient enough in their culture and social circles to justify to themselves. "Beating your children to death for disagreeing with you"? Well, that's old testament, so it doesn't matter now. "sending a woman out of town because it's that time of the month"? Also, old testament so, we don't have to follow that. "enslaving the people of neighboring nations"? Oh, you silly sod, that's all old testament and doesn't apply to us hip, modern godly believers. The "ten commandments"? Well, of course those matter, sure and don't you dirty atheists dare try to get our monument off the courthouse lawns!
... even though they are also old testament and- this is when the fingers pop into the ears amid singing of "LA-LA-LA-LA-LAH!"
The trouble is, so many Christians just dig around until they find something in The Rulebook, that they can use to "win". (like the people who make playing board games torture, because they use the piece of paper that came with the colorful pieces as a weapon to win at all costs) Yes, that's what the Book says, but, you're still using it all wrong. I tbink if you were a true Follower of Christ, you'd start with, something like, "Blessed be the Peacemakers". Y'know, things Jesus actually said?
It doesn't help the Bible falls apart in my hands. The scene in that one episode of Firefly where River is trying to "fix" the Bible, drawing arrows between passages and ripping out pages, yeah, that's me.
Don't get me started on The 10 Commandments (I count the same information in 14 separate instructions - 14 Commandments!) and how Exodus just keeps rambling on and on, into those rules you mentioned up above. "The fair price for selling thy daughter into sex slavery is fifty silver sheckels." did it for me. No way in hell the Big Cheese Himself, who created Life the Universe and Everything, is going to be quibbling in price-fixing the market for harem girls.
It doesn't help the Bible falls apart in my hands. The scene in that one episode of Firefly where River is trying to "fix" the Bible, drawing arrows between passages and ripping out pages, yeah, that's me.
Don't get me started on The 10 Commandments (I count the same information in 14 separate instructions - 14 Commandments!) and how Exodus just keeps rambling on and on, into those rules you mentioned up above. "The fair price for selling thy daughter into sex slavery is fifty silver sheckels." did it for me. No way in hell the Big Cheese Himself, who created Life the Universe and Everything, is going to be quibbling in price-fixing the market for harem girls.
My favourite thing is in Exodus - 40 years wandering when Memphis and Jerusalem is about a month walking on the coastline. :3
As bronze age fables, these work, but what modern use we have from giving up firstborn men for the church/state/governing body? I think theocracies and all just ran their time and now are useless ans hinder progress more than giving security.
As bronze age fables, these work, but what modern use we have from giving up firstborn men for the church/state/governing body? I think theocracies and all just ran their time and now are useless ans hinder progress more than giving security.
I love that you used the qualifier "yet"....
Truth is, when I doodled this up initially, I wanted to include the "god" figures of several religious groups as the whole point of the comic was that it's arrogant to claim "god said so" as a reason when we know of so many religions across the world, so many "gods" to claim as authority. Thus "whose god? Mine? Yours? Mine didn't say any of that."
One group I also wanted to include was atheists. I know this "god said so" faffery to be laughable to many, infuriating to others, particularly if they live in an area where one group's religion is often forced upon them. The problem of including atheist representation was, of course, that by virtue of the group, they have no "god" figure. Pretty quickly though, I turned to Star Trek, the TV series which it's own creator claimed as an "atheistic utopian future"(Also, most logos of Atheism have a striking similarity to the symbol of the United Federation of Planets). Starting from that point, it seemed natural to me to go with Jean-luc Picard. He's a man of science, patron of the arts, a passionate man and an intellectual who views violence as a very last resort and guides a vessel of many races and cultures into an unknown future. *claps* Perfect fit for a "god".
Also, Sir Patrick Stewart is far beyond sexy and I will accept no guff on that.
Truth is, when I doodled this up initially, I wanted to include the "god" figures of several religious groups as the whole point of the comic was that it's arrogant to claim "god said so" as a reason when we know of so many religions across the world, so many "gods" to claim as authority. Thus "whose god? Mine? Yours? Mine didn't say any of that."
One group I also wanted to include was atheists. I know this "god said so" faffery to be laughable to many, infuriating to others, particularly if they live in an area where one group's religion is often forced upon them. The problem of including atheist representation was, of course, that by virtue of the group, they have no "god" figure. Pretty quickly though, I turned to Star Trek, the TV series which it's own creator claimed as an "atheistic utopian future"(Also, most logos of Atheism have a striking similarity to the symbol of the United Federation of Planets). Starting from that point, it seemed natural to me to go with Jean-luc Picard. He's a man of science, patron of the arts, a passionate man and an intellectual who views violence as a very last resort and guides a vessel of many races and cultures into an unknown future. *claps* Perfect fit for a "god".
Also, Sir Patrick Stewart is far beyond sexy and I will accept no guff on that.
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