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Roly again.
How anyone could ever want to harm these animals amazes me.
How anyone could ever want to harm these animals amazes me.
Category Artwork (Digital) / Animal related (non-anthro)
Species Rat
Size 498 x 906px
File Size 608.5 kB
I know they're the same species, but not from what I've seen are they very similar in actions or safety. They even have noticeable differences physically; the domesticated's wide range of coat patterns, fur types, and body shapes are, for the most part, not seen in wild rats. Wild rats run from humans, and will bite if they are picked up. They're also rampant with diseases that domesticated rats are never seen with, and may not even be able to carry anymore. Wild rats are not social by choice, because they're trying to survive, and more rats mean more competition. I acknowledge there are outliers to this, but this is how a feral rat typically acts.
As we know, even the most scared domesticated rat will show an interest in humans. With a little bit of food, they're willing to be picked up. Domesticated rats carry less disease that your household dog or cat. And they NEED playmates, wither those are humans or other rats.
I'm not saying feral rats don't deserve to live or something, because they're very important to our food chain, but that're at least four generations away from being vaguely domesticated, and should be approached with caution.
As we know, even the most scared domesticated rat will show an interest in humans. With a little bit of food, they're willing to be picked up. Domesticated rats carry less disease that your household dog or cat. And they NEED playmates, wither those are humans or other rats.
I'm not saying feral rats don't deserve to live or something, because they're very important to our food chain, but that're at least four generations away from being vaguely domesticated, and should be approached with caution.
You are mis-using the word feral. Feral means a domesticated animal that has turned back to being wild, such as cats when they move away from humans and revert back to their wild state. Wild rats are not feral, they're just wild.
Also, wild rats and domestic rats are actually very similar in behaviours. Both are extremely social (Im not sure why you think wild rats aren't social, they are just as social, if not more, than our domestics. Far from providing competition, wild rats employ a 'safety in numbers' strategy, and the more rats there are, the more powerful the group).
Wild rats are not actually rampant with disease, this is a misconception spread by the media and exterminators who want to scare people into using their services. Wild rattus norvegicus are no more disease riddled than any other wild animal, and a good deal less than some (pigeons, for instance, are thought to carry more disease than any wild rat).
The biggest risk from wild rats is weils disease, which only 12-14% of wild rats even carry, and that you would need to wade into stagnant waters to catch.
And of the diseases that wild rats can carry, our domestics are just as able to carry them, the only reason they don't is because they're kept safe in our homes where they cannot encounter these diseases.
But as someone who takes in rescues, including some that have been found wandering in the wild after their dim witted owners 'released' them, I can tell you that absolutely it is advised to test these rats for weils disease. Anything a wild rat can catch, a domestic rat can catch, its just that our pets don't tend to because we keep them safe indoors in cages.
The coat patterns and fur types exist only because we have selectively bred for fancy colours. Most of these new colours pop up as a one-off fluke within a litter, and it is then bred for and continued on by human interference. This is how the albino rat came to be: albinos do pop up in wild colonies too, but they're usually picked off by a predator sooner and therefore, don't get to continue on their genes. But a single albino was found in a wild group, bred from, and thats how we have our albinos today.
And I know first hand of a colony of wild black hoodies that lived at a stables in this country, I think some are still about.
So wild rats are capable of the same diversity of colour as our pets; they just don't exhibit it because they have no been selectively bred for this purpose, and in the wild, unusual colours often mean death, ie, natural selection. Nature has selected for an agouti coat as it is the best for survival.
The body shapes of rats also do not vary.
With the exception of the dwarf and tailless, which are mutations, all rats have the same body shape. They're not like dogs. A dumbo cinnamon has the same basic body type as a wild sewer rat.
In fact, it is a blessing that the rat world has NOT embraced different body types, and messed themselves up like the dog world has.
If you took your pet rat and looked at its skeleton, then at the skeleton of a wild rat, you would not see any difference.
Also, while in general, wild rats are timid of humans, this is not always the case. Wild animals can very easily become used to humans around them, We have a park in the next town from me which has huge amounts of wild rats living in the woods and river banks. And they wander around with as much freedom and carelessness as squirrels or ducks; they're not scared of people. They will walk across the path in front of you.
If wildies are not harmed by humans, and actually are fed and provided for by them, they can actually become very human orientated. I know several people who have pet wild rats that adapted perfectly to being around humans and being friendly with them.
On the other hand, I know some domestic rats that have been released into the wild, and lived in the wild for several weeks, who quickly reverted back to being timid of humans.
With rats, while nature does play a part in temperament, nurture seems to play a much bigger part.
There are people-confident, mellow wildies, and aggressive terrified domestics.
You say even the most scared of domestics will come around to humans, and let themselves be picked up with the promise of some food? Noooooo! Good god, no. I've had some absolute wrecks of domestic rats in here over the years who were absolutely NOT at all interested in humans, other than to attack them in absolute terror. If you tried to pick up these rats, you'd have your hand ripped open. If only it WERE as simple as a little food treat and they'd come round! I have rats now that I still don't really handle, because they don't enjoy it. They don't like me, they don't like humans, they are rat rats, not people rats.
And thats fine. It doesn't bother me.
Conversely, the little wild rat who lived in my shed until very recently always showed an interest in me. She'd watch me go about my day, I even got close enough to de-mite her! She was more comfortable around me than some of my domestics have been!
And yes, you're right, domestics absolutely do need play mates, which must be rat playmates. Humans are important playmates to them, too, but other rats MUST be provided for them regardless of how much human company they get.
Im not saying wild rats are domesticated, they're not, they're wild. Not feral, wild.
However, this just means that they have not been bred selectively to choose a mellow, accepting temperament, and they've not been born in cages around humans. Thats the only difference. Domestication is just the process of selectively breeding a wild animal to make it more suited to life with humans, selecting for low levels of aggression, and such.
But anatomically, and in most ways behaviourally, wild rats and pet rats are identical.
Take a wild baby rat and raise it in a cage and treat it like your pet rats, and you'll find in most cases it will grow up to act no different to your pet rats. I have a friend who takes in baby wildies, and this has proven to be true for her. Conversely, take a baby domestic rat and drop it in with a wild litter and let it grow up in the wild, and you'll find it acts almost identical to the true wilds.
Also, wild rats and domestic rats are actually very similar in behaviours. Both are extremely social (Im not sure why you think wild rats aren't social, they are just as social, if not more, than our domestics. Far from providing competition, wild rats employ a 'safety in numbers' strategy, and the more rats there are, the more powerful the group).
Wild rats are not actually rampant with disease, this is a misconception spread by the media and exterminators who want to scare people into using their services. Wild rattus norvegicus are no more disease riddled than any other wild animal, and a good deal less than some (pigeons, for instance, are thought to carry more disease than any wild rat).
The biggest risk from wild rats is weils disease, which only 12-14% of wild rats even carry, and that you would need to wade into stagnant waters to catch.
And of the diseases that wild rats can carry, our domestics are just as able to carry them, the only reason they don't is because they're kept safe in our homes where they cannot encounter these diseases.
But as someone who takes in rescues, including some that have been found wandering in the wild after their dim witted owners 'released' them, I can tell you that absolutely it is advised to test these rats for weils disease. Anything a wild rat can catch, a domestic rat can catch, its just that our pets don't tend to because we keep them safe indoors in cages.
The coat patterns and fur types exist only because we have selectively bred for fancy colours. Most of these new colours pop up as a one-off fluke within a litter, and it is then bred for and continued on by human interference. This is how the albino rat came to be: albinos do pop up in wild colonies too, but they're usually picked off by a predator sooner and therefore, don't get to continue on their genes. But a single albino was found in a wild group, bred from, and thats how we have our albinos today.
And I know first hand of a colony of wild black hoodies that lived at a stables in this country, I think some are still about.
So wild rats are capable of the same diversity of colour as our pets; they just don't exhibit it because they have no been selectively bred for this purpose, and in the wild, unusual colours often mean death, ie, natural selection. Nature has selected for an agouti coat as it is the best for survival.
The body shapes of rats also do not vary.
With the exception of the dwarf and tailless, which are mutations, all rats have the same body shape. They're not like dogs. A dumbo cinnamon has the same basic body type as a wild sewer rat.
In fact, it is a blessing that the rat world has NOT embraced different body types, and messed themselves up like the dog world has.
If you took your pet rat and looked at its skeleton, then at the skeleton of a wild rat, you would not see any difference.
Also, while in general, wild rats are timid of humans, this is not always the case. Wild animals can very easily become used to humans around them, We have a park in the next town from me which has huge amounts of wild rats living in the woods and river banks. And they wander around with as much freedom and carelessness as squirrels or ducks; they're not scared of people. They will walk across the path in front of you.
If wildies are not harmed by humans, and actually are fed and provided for by them, they can actually become very human orientated. I know several people who have pet wild rats that adapted perfectly to being around humans and being friendly with them.
On the other hand, I know some domestic rats that have been released into the wild, and lived in the wild for several weeks, who quickly reverted back to being timid of humans.
With rats, while nature does play a part in temperament, nurture seems to play a much bigger part.
There are people-confident, mellow wildies, and aggressive terrified domestics.
You say even the most scared of domestics will come around to humans, and let themselves be picked up with the promise of some food? Noooooo! Good god, no. I've had some absolute wrecks of domestic rats in here over the years who were absolutely NOT at all interested in humans, other than to attack them in absolute terror. If you tried to pick up these rats, you'd have your hand ripped open. If only it WERE as simple as a little food treat and they'd come round! I have rats now that I still don't really handle, because they don't enjoy it. They don't like me, they don't like humans, they are rat rats, not people rats.
And thats fine. It doesn't bother me.
Conversely, the little wild rat who lived in my shed until very recently always showed an interest in me. She'd watch me go about my day, I even got close enough to de-mite her! She was more comfortable around me than some of my domestics have been!
And yes, you're right, domestics absolutely do need play mates, which must be rat playmates. Humans are important playmates to them, too, but other rats MUST be provided for them regardless of how much human company they get.
Im not saying wild rats are domesticated, they're not, they're wild. Not feral, wild.
However, this just means that they have not been bred selectively to choose a mellow, accepting temperament, and they've not been born in cages around humans. Thats the only difference. Domestication is just the process of selectively breeding a wild animal to make it more suited to life with humans, selecting for low levels of aggression, and such.
But anatomically, and in most ways behaviourally, wild rats and pet rats are identical.
Take a wild baby rat and raise it in a cage and treat it like your pet rats, and you'll find in most cases it will grow up to act no different to your pet rats. I have a friend who takes in baby wildies, and this has proven to be true for her. Conversely, take a baby domestic rat and drop it in with a wild litter and let it grow up in the wild, and you'll find it acts almost identical to the true wilds.
(I apologize about the feral bit; I thought they were interchangeable.)
I used this for the comparison source, as well as personal experience.
My thing is that it is still dangerous to approach a wild rat as you would a domesticated. People can get hurt. When we, as rat lovers, portray them as the same thing, new-to-rat persons can get a nasty awakening if they approach a wild rat readily. Then, they will most likely not believe rats can make good pets. It will give us, and rats, bad credibility.
I've seen that wild Norway rats look different. They tend to have more angular faces, sleek bodies, erect ears, and wide eyes. I know they CAN have the coat patterns domestics do, but they often don't for the reasons you stated.
I agree that they are susceptible to many of the same diseases, but, as you said, they don't encounter them, and thus are significantly less-likely to have said diseases. Not to mention some rats are vaccinated or simply immune. While most domestics can indeed get diseases, they are MUCH LESS LIKELY TO and thus safer to approach.
While wild rats may able to become comfortable around humans, they still don't seek you out. Like squirrels. They'll dart around and the like, but if you chase them or try to bait them (excluding squirrels such as the ones in DC), they typically run away.
I will agree that MOST rats NEED other rats, but some rats DO NOT WANT THEM for some reason. I have let my rat have several play sessions with other rats when cancer took his brother, but he never showed any interest in any of the other rats. He avoided them and looked for a way out, often staying where my scent was last. My vet, who keeps a ZOO at his house (a zoo of proper pets, mind you, he doesn't even like the Russian foxes), agrees that there is a small number of rats who just prefer people.
My point, again, is to not give people who aren't familiar with rats the impression that they can approach wild and domesticated rats the same way. But cause it is, more often than not, safe to try to adopt a fancy.
I used this for the comparison source, as well as personal experience.
My thing is that it is still dangerous to approach a wild rat as you would a domesticated. People can get hurt. When we, as rat lovers, portray them as the same thing, new-to-rat persons can get a nasty awakening if they approach a wild rat readily. Then, they will most likely not believe rats can make good pets. It will give us, and rats, bad credibility.
I've seen that wild Norway rats look different. They tend to have more angular faces, sleek bodies, erect ears, and wide eyes. I know they CAN have the coat patterns domestics do, but they often don't for the reasons you stated.
I agree that they are susceptible to many of the same diseases, but, as you said, they don't encounter them, and thus are significantly less-likely to have said diseases. Not to mention some rats are vaccinated or simply immune. While most domestics can indeed get diseases, they are MUCH LESS LIKELY TO and thus safer to approach.
While wild rats may able to become comfortable around humans, they still don't seek you out. Like squirrels. They'll dart around and the like, but if you chase them or try to bait them (excluding squirrels such as the ones in DC), they typically run away.
I will agree that MOST rats NEED other rats, but some rats DO NOT WANT THEM for some reason. I have let my rat have several play sessions with other rats when cancer took his brother, but he never showed any interest in any of the other rats. He avoided them and looked for a way out, often staying where my scent was last. My vet, who keeps a ZOO at his house (a zoo of proper pets, mind you, he doesn't even like the Russian foxes), agrees that there is a small number of rats who just prefer people.
My point, again, is to not give people who aren't familiar with rats the impression that they can approach wild and domesticated rats the same way. But cause it is, more often than not, safe to try to adopt a fancy.
My thing is that it is still dangerous to approach a wild rat as you would a domesticated. People can get hurt. When we, as rat lovers, portray them as the same thing, new-to-rat persons can get a nasty awakening if they approach a wild rat readily. Then, they will most likely not believe rats can make good pets. It will give us, and rats, bad credibility.
I think most people with 2 brain cells to rub together know not to mess with any wild animal in the way you would a pet. My parents certainly taught me a respect for animals from a young age :P
I actually think it is more damaging for people to be ignorant to the fact that their pet rats are the same species as wild rats. I think this not only adversely affects wild rat welfare, but it makes people ignorant to their pets actual instincts and requirements. I run into a lot of people who own pet rats, but hate wild rats, and its absolutely baffling; they're the same animal. One was just born in captivity, one wasn't.
If people actually realised the truth about wild rats, there would be far less en masse murder of these animals based on ignorance and scaremongering.
I've seen that wild Norway rats look different. They tend to have more angular faces, sleek bodies, erect ears, and wide eyes
No, they don't. Really, they don't. There is a reason why rat rescuers who take in 'released' pets have trouble knowing whether they're released domestics or wild rats, particularly when they're agouti. There is nothing to tell between them. Here, look at these pics. This is spirit, the wild rat who lives in my shed, can you tell her from a pet agouti, because I certainly can't: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150663180128064.452413.628043063&type=3&l=7cad51b31d
Unless you're talking about different species, wild and pet rattus norvegicus are pretty much identical. Put an agouti pet rat and a wildie side by side, and I'd challenge any rat person to tell which was which.
Its possible you're thinking about a different species of wild rat: the black rat, rattus rattus. These are a different species to our pet rats, they're smaller, sleeker, have bigger ears, longer tails, pointier faces, and bigger wider eyes. From your description, this is the wild rat you're looking at, not rattus norvegicus.
Not to mention some rats are vaccinated or simply immune.
Pet rats do not require any vaccines, and do not have any performed on them. I also don't know about them having an immunity to traditional wild rat diseases, I'd need some sources for this.
While wild rats may able to become comfortable around humans, they still don't seek you out. Like squirrels. They'll dart around and the like, but if you chase them or try to bait them (excluding squirrels such as the ones in DC), they typically run away.
Typically yes, but it depends on your relationship with the rats. I've known people have a wild rat 'make friends' with them, by their own choice. These are social animals, after all. They're social, intelligent and curious, these all make for a good recipe for one striking up a relationship with a willing, non hostile human. There was someone I knew in a rat community who used to regularly go to the park and feed the wild rats, and they came to expect her, and wait for her, running over her feet and being very comfortable, even excited by her presence.
In general, wild rats are timid and flighty, but depending on how often they see humans and how passive/positive their experiences with them are, they can become rather friendly.
I will agree that MOST rats NEED other rats, but some rats DO NOT WANT THEM for some reason. I have let my rat have several play sessions with other rats when cancer took his brother, but he never showed any interest in any of the other rats. He avoided them and looked for a way out, often staying where my scent was last.
Just because you have not settled on the right intro process or the right rats to provide as companions, it does not mean the rat doesn't like other rats.
As Im sure you know, rat meetings have to happen gradually. You can't just put two strange rats together and expect them to get along. Some rats have too many hormones raging inside, which make it hard for them to settle with others. The key is castration.
I have a boy here who attacked and almost killed several rats. It would be easy to say he just 'didn't like' other rats, and give up on him and keep him alone.
But I had him castrated, and it took over 3 months to get him to accept other rats. I had to find the right group with the right dynamic, and use the right process, but he is now finally settled, and happily grooming others and being groomed.
As a rescuer, I see SO many rats that people tell me 'don't like other rats', and have been kept alone as a result. When all that really happened was that the owner didn't know how to introduce the rat to others properly, or didn't spend enough time on it.
I've actually never had a rat here that couldn't live with others, and I've had almost 300 rats. It might take castration, it might take very slow intros, it might take finding the right companion, and it can be very long winded and hard, but I have no doubt that 99% of rats can live with others with the right time, process and knowledge.
My point, again, is to not give people who aren't familiar with rats the impression that they can approach wild and domesticated rats the same way. But cause it is, more often than not, safe to try to adopt a fancy.
I think if someone is stupid enough to think this, they probably deserve to be bitten. I honestly don't know anyone who has a desire to go up and cuddle a wild rat, most people hate wild rats. I have also never told anyone to go and hug a wildie, but I have told people they are the same species, with very similar behaviours, and that to hate one and love the other is extremely hypocritical.
I think most people with 2 brain cells to rub together know not to mess with any wild animal in the way you would a pet. My parents certainly taught me a respect for animals from a young age :P
I actually think it is more damaging for people to be ignorant to the fact that their pet rats are the same species as wild rats. I think this not only adversely affects wild rat welfare, but it makes people ignorant to their pets actual instincts and requirements. I run into a lot of people who own pet rats, but hate wild rats, and its absolutely baffling; they're the same animal. One was just born in captivity, one wasn't.
If people actually realised the truth about wild rats, there would be far less en masse murder of these animals based on ignorance and scaremongering.
I've seen that wild Norway rats look different. They tend to have more angular faces, sleek bodies, erect ears, and wide eyes
No, they don't. Really, they don't. There is a reason why rat rescuers who take in 'released' pets have trouble knowing whether they're released domestics or wild rats, particularly when they're agouti. There is nothing to tell between them. Here, look at these pics. This is spirit, the wild rat who lives in my shed, can you tell her from a pet agouti, because I certainly can't: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150663180128064.452413.628043063&type=3&l=7cad51b31d
Unless you're talking about different species, wild and pet rattus norvegicus are pretty much identical. Put an agouti pet rat and a wildie side by side, and I'd challenge any rat person to tell which was which.
Its possible you're thinking about a different species of wild rat: the black rat, rattus rattus. These are a different species to our pet rats, they're smaller, sleeker, have bigger ears, longer tails, pointier faces, and bigger wider eyes. From your description, this is the wild rat you're looking at, not rattus norvegicus.
Not to mention some rats are vaccinated or simply immune.
Pet rats do not require any vaccines, and do not have any performed on them. I also don't know about them having an immunity to traditional wild rat diseases, I'd need some sources for this.
While wild rats may able to become comfortable around humans, they still don't seek you out. Like squirrels. They'll dart around and the like, but if you chase them or try to bait them (excluding squirrels such as the ones in DC), they typically run away.
Typically yes, but it depends on your relationship with the rats. I've known people have a wild rat 'make friends' with them, by their own choice. These are social animals, after all. They're social, intelligent and curious, these all make for a good recipe for one striking up a relationship with a willing, non hostile human. There was someone I knew in a rat community who used to regularly go to the park and feed the wild rats, and they came to expect her, and wait for her, running over her feet and being very comfortable, even excited by her presence.
In general, wild rats are timid and flighty, but depending on how often they see humans and how passive/positive their experiences with them are, they can become rather friendly.
I will agree that MOST rats NEED other rats, but some rats DO NOT WANT THEM for some reason. I have let my rat have several play sessions with other rats when cancer took his brother, but he never showed any interest in any of the other rats. He avoided them and looked for a way out, often staying where my scent was last.
Just because you have not settled on the right intro process or the right rats to provide as companions, it does not mean the rat doesn't like other rats.
As Im sure you know, rat meetings have to happen gradually. You can't just put two strange rats together and expect them to get along. Some rats have too many hormones raging inside, which make it hard for them to settle with others. The key is castration.
I have a boy here who attacked and almost killed several rats. It would be easy to say he just 'didn't like' other rats, and give up on him and keep him alone.
But I had him castrated, and it took over 3 months to get him to accept other rats. I had to find the right group with the right dynamic, and use the right process, but he is now finally settled, and happily grooming others and being groomed.
As a rescuer, I see SO many rats that people tell me 'don't like other rats', and have been kept alone as a result. When all that really happened was that the owner didn't know how to introduce the rat to others properly, or didn't spend enough time on it.
I've actually never had a rat here that couldn't live with others, and I've had almost 300 rats. It might take castration, it might take very slow intros, it might take finding the right companion, and it can be very long winded and hard, but I have no doubt that 99% of rats can live with others with the right time, process and knowledge.
My point, again, is to not give people who aren't familiar with rats the impression that they can approach wild and domesticated rats the same way. But cause it is, more often than not, safe to try to adopt a fancy.
I think if someone is stupid enough to think this, they probably deserve to be bitten. I honestly don't know anyone who has a desire to go up and cuddle a wild rat, most people hate wild rats. I have also never told anyone to go and hug a wildie, but I have told people they are the same species, with very similar behaviours, and that to hate one and love the other is extremely hypocritical.
Has the internet not taught you there are stupid people out there? :p And, if they think that wild rat = domesticated, it would make them more likely to try it. Because, hey, why do buy or adopt (which takes money) a pet rat when we have the exact same thing in our subways?
I can, actually. The tail and feet are a big thing; they tend to have a different feel than domesticated rats do, and their coloring is always dark. Given agouti rats have darker skin as well, but they almost always have pink somewhere. And, unless fed, they really do retain that build. And I don't think I've seen black rats because of my region and the size of the rats I've seen.
My friend had a rat problem and had pet rats. After capturing the rats (it was a very odd procedure), they tested them for different sorts of diseases, and then then got their rats immunized for them, in case more rats came. One of said rats was already immune to one of the things the rest were getting shots for.
That, I can believe. Squirrels do it, too.
I really have tried. Same rats. Different rats. 30 minutes a time. And he's not aggressive to them. They would chase him and groom him, and he'd let them, but wouldn't return affection. He wasn't even interested in a fixed female, and I've never known an animal to be able to tell fixed from non! I'd be willing to get my rat fixed, but my dad won't let me do it. Says I shouldn't "waste money" that way. And by the time I get my own place... well, we know rats don't live long....
Whoawhoawhoa, I don't HATE wild rats. I just think they need to be respected and left alone. And, if there's an infestation, relocated as opposed to killed. But then again, it's not like Norway rats are even close to threatened. In fact, one could even say they've OVER populated, especially island nations. But I think HUMANS overpopulate the earth, but we're not just going to go around gassing humans, are we?
I can, actually. The tail and feet are a big thing; they tend to have a different feel than domesticated rats do, and their coloring is always dark. Given agouti rats have darker skin as well, but they almost always have pink somewhere. And, unless fed, they really do retain that build. And I don't think I've seen black rats because of my region and the size of the rats I've seen.
My friend had a rat problem and had pet rats. After capturing the rats (it was a very odd procedure), they tested them for different sorts of diseases, and then then got their rats immunized for them, in case more rats came. One of said rats was already immune to one of the things the rest were getting shots for.
That, I can believe. Squirrels do it, too.
I really have tried. Same rats. Different rats. 30 minutes a time. And he's not aggressive to them. They would chase him and groom him, and he'd let them, but wouldn't return affection. He wasn't even interested in a fixed female, and I've never known an animal to be able to tell fixed from non! I'd be willing to get my rat fixed, but my dad won't let me do it. Says I shouldn't "waste money" that way. And by the time I get my own place... well, we know rats don't live long....
Whoawhoawhoa, I don't HATE wild rats. I just think they need to be respected and left alone. And, if there's an infestation, relocated as opposed to killed. But then again, it's not like Norway rats are even close to threatened. In fact, one could even say they've OVER populated, especially island nations. But I think HUMANS overpopulate the earth, but we're not just going to go around gassing humans, are we?
And, if they think that wild rat = domesticated, it would make them more likely to try it.
I never said they were domesticated. They're not, they're wild. Domestication means a strain of animal that has been selectively bred over a number of years to be more suited to human co-habitation. Some animals are captive bred, but not considered domesticated: giant gambian rats are an example of this. They're kept as pets, and bred in captivity, but this doesn't make them domesticated as they've not been bred for long enough to be classified as such, and they are not.
I said they're the same species, with the same anatomy and many of the same behaviours. This doesn't mean domestic, though.
I can, actually. The tail and feet are a big thing; they tend to have a different feel than domesticated rats do, and their coloring is always dark. Given agouti rats have darker skin as well, but they almost always have pink somewhere. And, unless fed, they really do retain that build. And I don't think I've seen black rats because of my region and the size of the rats I've seen
Im sorry, I'll have to disagree. The wildies I've seen, and the one we had living with us for over a year, was not 'darker' than any of my agoutis. She was actually paler than some of mine. And I also have some very dark agouti domestics. Coat colour is not a decider. Shades of agouti vary wildly, in both domestics and wilds. We selectively breed for the 'correct' agouti shade in our pets, as defined by show standards. But I've seen very pale/ginger agouti wilds, and very dark 'non standard' agoutis. The body type is also not a decider. You get fat, chunky pets, and very thin, wirey pets. I've got 45 rats here, and they're all fed the same, the same food and the same amount, but some are fat and chunky, others are lean and small. Like people, body size depends on genetics, the start you get in life and many other things. Most of the wildies I've seen are quite big and fat, the only lean ones I see are youngsters who haven't bulked out yet.
I can assure you, if it were easy to tell wild from domestic, those of us who rescue would not have the problem of wondering if the rat we've seen wandering in the garden was wild or domestic.
I ask you again, look at my wildie in photos: does she look any different to an agouti pet to you?
Im very sceptical of claims that all her rats were tested for many diseases. Modern veterinary medicine is not actually advanced enough to do very complex bloods on rats; there isn't enough call for it. When I took in a domestic rescue that had been wandering wild, I asked the vet if she needed testing. While he said a lepto test was technically possible, the results would be sketchy and taking blood from a rat can be extremely hard and risky to the rat.
For immunisation, they would need to stock a rat specific vaccine for all these diseases, and having worked at vets, I don't know any that do, or would.
Again, no demand for it.
They'd also need to know the dose, and that it were safe for rats, they'd need extensive testing, as cat and dog vaccines have been for years. Even dog and cat vaccines can be dodgy, and these are used daily. Rat specific vaccines do not exist at any vet I've worked at or used. If you have proof of these tests, vaccines and such, I'd love to see it, because if it is true, it would be informative to learn about.
Also, how did they decide the rat was already immune? That requires more testing in and of itself. Dogs can be titre tested for antibodies against diseases, to see if repeat boosters are necessary, but I've never heard of such a thing for rats. In 15 years of rat ownership, I've never heard of rat vaccines, or titre tests, or any test to determine pre existing immunity to any rat diseases.
And he's not aggressive to them. They would chase him and groom him, and he'd let them, but wouldn't return affection. He wasn't even interested in a fixed female,
Then why can't he live with them? Agression is the main reason rats can't live with others, and if thats not a problem, why can't he go in with the others? Because he doesn't return affection? Some rats don't. Some rats aren't like that. I have some here who will lick and groom and play with others all day, and others who can't be bothered, thats not their personality. It doesn't mean they don't get on, though.
As long as there is no aggression, it isn't a problem.
Rats are like people, not all of them are outgoing and overly friendly to others, some just like to lay there and have company around them, they don't need to be constantly involved with the other rats to be happy in their company. If he's letting them chase and groom him without issue, then he is comfortable with other rats, even if he doesn't match the 'human' definition of friendly. Im not overly affectionate either, but I still like having people near me.
I just think they need to be respected and left alone
I think this too.
I never said they were domesticated. They're not, they're wild. Domestication means a strain of animal that has been selectively bred over a number of years to be more suited to human co-habitation. Some animals are captive bred, but not considered domesticated: giant gambian rats are an example of this. They're kept as pets, and bred in captivity, but this doesn't make them domesticated as they've not been bred for long enough to be classified as such, and they are not.
I said they're the same species, with the same anatomy and many of the same behaviours. This doesn't mean domestic, though.
I can, actually. The tail and feet are a big thing; they tend to have a different feel than domesticated rats do, and their coloring is always dark. Given agouti rats have darker skin as well, but they almost always have pink somewhere. And, unless fed, they really do retain that build. And I don't think I've seen black rats because of my region and the size of the rats I've seen
Im sorry, I'll have to disagree. The wildies I've seen, and the one we had living with us for over a year, was not 'darker' than any of my agoutis. She was actually paler than some of mine. And I also have some very dark agouti domestics. Coat colour is not a decider. Shades of agouti vary wildly, in both domestics and wilds. We selectively breed for the 'correct' agouti shade in our pets, as defined by show standards. But I've seen very pale/ginger agouti wilds, and very dark 'non standard' agoutis. The body type is also not a decider. You get fat, chunky pets, and very thin, wirey pets. I've got 45 rats here, and they're all fed the same, the same food and the same amount, but some are fat and chunky, others are lean and small. Like people, body size depends on genetics, the start you get in life and many other things. Most of the wildies I've seen are quite big and fat, the only lean ones I see are youngsters who haven't bulked out yet.
I can assure you, if it were easy to tell wild from domestic, those of us who rescue would not have the problem of wondering if the rat we've seen wandering in the garden was wild or domestic.
I ask you again, look at my wildie in photos: does she look any different to an agouti pet to you?
Im very sceptical of claims that all her rats were tested for many diseases. Modern veterinary medicine is not actually advanced enough to do very complex bloods on rats; there isn't enough call for it. When I took in a domestic rescue that had been wandering wild, I asked the vet if she needed testing. While he said a lepto test was technically possible, the results would be sketchy and taking blood from a rat can be extremely hard and risky to the rat.
For immunisation, they would need to stock a rat specific vaccine for all these diseases, and having worked at vets, I don't know any that do, or would.
Again, no demand for it.
They'd also need to know the dose, and that it were safe for rats, they'd need extensive testing, as cat and dog vaccines have been for years. Even dog and cat vaccines can be dodgy, and these are used daily. Rat specific vaccines do not exist at any vet I've worked at or used. If you have proof of these tests, vaccines and such, I'd love to see it, because if it is true, it would be informative to learn about.
Also, how did they decide the rat was already immune? That requires more testing in and of itself. Dogs can be titre tested for antibodies against diseases, to see if repeat boosters are necessary, but I've never heard of such a thing for rats. In 15 years of rat ownership, I've never heard of rat vaccines, or titre tests, or any test to determine pre existing immunity to any rat diseases.
And he's not aggressive to them. They would chase him and groom him, and he'd let them, but wouldn't return affection. He wasn't even interested in a fixed female,
Then why can't he live with them? Agression is the main reason rats can't live with others, and if thats not a problem, why can't he go in with the others? Because he doesn't return affection? Some rats don't. Some rats aren't like that. I have some here who will lick and groom and play with others all day, and others who can't be bothered, thats not their personality. It doesn't mean they don't get on, though.
As long as there is no aggression, it isn't a problem.
Rats are like people, not all of them are outgoing and overly friendly to others, some just like to lay there and have company around them, they don't need to be constantly involved with the other rats to be happy in their company. If he's letting them chase and groom him without issue, then he is comfortable with other rats, even if he doesn't match the 'human' definition of friendly. Im not overly affectionate either, but I still like having people near me.
I just think they need to be respected and left alone
I think this too.
It seems we're at an agreement, for the most part.
My thing was he always tried to find me when I left him to play. I watch it, to make sure it didn't get out of a hand, but he never really settles down. And, since he has no apparent desire for another rat (no weight loss, loss of activity or interest, illness, etc), and he's getting old and I'll be moving out soon, my dad won't be open to another rat. :/
He dad was a vet, from what I understood. He'd been working on vaccines for wild rats, actually, so that they could live with the rats in their house (frequent infestations). She never really went into detail, but I think I remember something about the method you mentioned. He also synthesized more blood off of the rats' samples (not exactly legal, but yeah). Unfortunately, I've lost contact with her. :/
My thing was he always tried to find me when I left him to play. I watch it, to make sure it didn't get out of a hand, but he never really settles down. And, since he has no apparent desire for another rat (no weight loss, loss of activity or interest, illness, etc), and he's getting old and I'll be moving out soon, my dad won't be open to another rat. :/
He dad was a vet, from what I understood. He'd been working on vaccines for wild rats, actually, so that they could live with the rats in their house (frequent infestations). She never really went into detail, but I think I remember something about the method you mentioned. He also synthesized more blood off of the rats' samples (not exactly legal, but yeah). Unfortunately, I've lost contact with her. :/
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