I allready voted to ban the stuff.

*Nods* I've already posted my vote against.

I already voted ban for it.

Honestly I don't care whether or not it's banned. I already use the Adblocker on artists I don't like, and if an artist I like draws pedo art I just move on to the next thumbnail.

IT'S NOT HARD.

Also, this is the 5th anti-pedo picture I've seen and commented on today. IT'S GETTING OLD.

Like you said yourself. You don't have to click the thumbnail or type in your comment if you don't like it =)

Oh irony.

I'm attempting to stop the stupid from polluting FA. Maybe if I whine loudly enough people will stop bitching about something so retarded as cub porn.

Have you seen the 100 plus page thread? Lots of whining there, nothing's getting done =(

*lol*

that's "exactly" what I wanted to say. Talk about hypocrisy =)

Haha. You get a gold star!

You're posting an ultimatum...do this or I'll leave? That just isn't right...even under the circumstances. Not cool.

It's an imperfect solution for an imperfect world.. like many things in life we have to do things we wish we didn't. However to stand by and allow that type of content to be here is even more wrong. Much like voting for political candidates, sometimes you vote for the lesser evil...in this case I do support limited censure ship. It isn't an ultimatum. I am simply telling it like it is, and informing my watchers of the consequences.

"a final, uncompromising demand or set of terms issued by a party to a dispute, the rejection of which may lead to a severance of relations or to the use of force."

No, it's an ultimatum. You're threatening to leave if they don't vote your way. You're using a scare tactic, take away the candy from the baby unless they're good. It's completely wrong.

You are intitled to your opinion. In mine it is a cause and effect. No different than me saying ' If you touch the stove when it's on, you'll get burned.'.

I truly pity you if you think an 'ultimatum' is a bigger deal than some one caring about preventing child abuse.

There's no child abuse being committed, for one. But what I do find just as appalling is the way people react to something that hasn't even happened. This is bringing out the worst in you on your own accord, no fault has been started even, it was a poll, and now you're making threats to remove your artwork. You're taking a very, very wrong route to prove a point.

Starfig, you say what I think. This is no the right way to act. Disappointing.

I just cant see your side of it starfig, ive tried but i simply cant. if She dosnt want to be on a site that Allows something that horridly contradicts what she beleves in then for fuck sake dont cry and complane when she gose.

Honestly its just a normal reaction, she agreed to the TOS wich said it WASN'T allowed and now they may change it.

If i made a contract with YOU saying there was a few spasific things that i wouldnt do to you, and you signed it. then Decided to change one of those things that you really wouldnt like if i did AFTER your sig was on the dotted line whould YOU like that very much?

i think No.

what Starfig is attempting to say is: Your are persented with a choice; white chocolate and a gold bar. You can have which everone you want, execpt the goldbar is connected to 1,000,000,000,000,000 volt producing Nuclear fusion plant.

But you can pick whatever you want, I mean, I'm picking the White chocolate, but whatever.

ok there are lots and lots of things wrong with that statement but i wont be too picky.

People arnt trying to FORCE there moralty on any one, it has been stated by many many many people there is a place called cub central that you can go and enjoy that kind of thing if you wish... but soooo many people feel that that kind of art is so very compleatly and utterly wrong, that they are willing to leave the site if it is allowed. its not a big movement, they arnt saying beleve it or die, or restricting you in any way. They just dont wanna be around it, so arguments like the ones above are how do you say FALSE, INVALID, UNTRUE... you get my point. its not ruining a site for pedifiles you still have your place for that, probably many more. but it IS ruining a site where every body else used to go to share there art, simply becase of the few people who wanted to do that ONE thing.

sorry but absolutely NO argument in the whole entire world would get me to belive that anything relateing to sex with small children is right in any way shape or form.

ok that is fucked up this post (both of them tha FA posted IN THE WRONG PLACE -_-) are supposed to go below the comment below my other one where some one said something about a gold bar and white chocolate :/

ok there are lots and lots of things wrong with that statement but i wont be too picky.

People arnt trying to FORCE there moralty on any one, it has been stated by many many many people there is a place called cub central that you can go and enjoy that kind of thing if you wish... but soooo many people feel that that kind of art is so very compleatly and utterly wrong, that they are willing to leave the site if it is allowed. its not a big movement, they arnt saying beleve it or die, or restricting you in any way. They just dont wanna be around it, so arguments like the ones above are how do you say FALSE, INVALID, UNTRUE... you get my point. its not ruining a site for pedifiles you still have your place for that, probably many more. but it IS ruining a site where every body else used to go to share there art, simply becase of the few people who wanted to do that ONE thing.

sorry but absolutely NO argument in the whole entire world would get me to belive that anything relateing to sex with small children is right in any way shape or form.

It’s just wrong, actual or not. There are just some things that you shouldn’t glorify, even artistically.

If cybercat doesn’t want to support it by posting art where pedo art is allowed, it shouldn’t be anyone else’s choice. I see this more as a notice really than an ultimatum, but if you must be anal about definitions, I guess no one can stop you over the Internet. It’s just more along the lines of the context of the situation.

But what other routes would you suggest then? It wouldn’t be right to say… DDOS the server or hack it, or use some other form of destructive protest, though, then it’d probably be an ultimatum. Leaving to avoid supporting a site that allows something that goes against your morals doesn’t seem like a wrong thing to do.

But that’s my 2 cents on the matter.

And she's not allowed to have her own opinion? Give me a break. Until the site says "you have to stay if you put your arts up" she can do as she pleases. It's not an ultimatum IF SHE'S ALREADY LEFT. If she hadn't, she'd be making an ultimatum. Since she did, she's making a statement. Please go stuff yourself.

Wow, this is old, and at the time, she was still here, so it was very, very, very much an ultimatum. So lick me. ;P

I later found this out. But she left, which makes her better than some others. ><;; sorry about this, I often forget to look at the age of comments when I'm emptying my messages out of my folders.

*nods* Fair enough then...and trust me, I DO understand why folks get antsy about all this, and it IS their right to leave, but it just bugs me so much to see folks go the way they're going. That's all that gets to me. It's not their personal choice on the matter, it's just how it happens.

I agree.
Cub porn and child abuse are similar and yet different. Cub porn is fictitious ideas taken from the mind and made into images which has nothing at all to do with real live children.
It can also be a way for people to express their inner selves. For example, someone who had abusive or neglective parents may imagine a family that is kind and carring - the sex meerly being an extention of those feelings.

No, it IS an Ultimatum. You're telling your fans that if they don't conform to your veiws and do exactly what you tell them to then you're going to leave.

Luckily for your fans, you're already on Devart as well, so following you if you leave won't be any big deal. As such, there's no real reason for anyone to comply with your demands and your ultimatum fails miserablely. So how bout skipping the voting results and hauling your prissy little ass out of here right now. Nobody's gonna miss ya...

Alright, I'm Prissy! Woohoo, Gooooo Me! *happy dances*

Nothing gets a point acrosslike insulting someone. You go you big man you.

Get bent fucktard, nobody asked you.

I only vaguely insulted her, if you can even call That an insult at all, and I only added it After doing what I could to try to make a point. If I wanted to bash someone, there are much more childish and obscene ways for me to go about it... go insult someone else's intelligence for a while.

Miss kitty cat doesn't deal in furry porn, thus nothing here that isn't on DA already. So if this gallery goes poof, who gives a shit? There's already a preexisting backup, something most of the artist's you're "fighting" against don't have. THEY will be missed, THEY may well disappear completely from existance, YOU won't. So stop bitching and leave already.

Gee, it looks like somebody's got an axe to grind.

I wonder who? *ponder*

If the extinction of "cub porn" artists is to result from a site banning of such content(nevermind the fact that the TOS rules already forbid it) then I'm all for that.

Then you're retarded. Have any of you even stopped for a second to step back and even THINK about how many artists are likely to get fucked over by such an insanely vague notion as "cub porn." Artists who simply draw in a cute/cartoony style that could be oh so easily labeled "cub" by all of you pinheads out there. Or others that just happen to draw some particularly short characters? So you're telling me no more DemiGlenn? And what about characters that have always looked young to begin with? Like, oh say, ANYTHING drawn in the Sonic the Hedgehog style! If you pinheads would get off your moral high horse for five seconds, you might have realized things like that by now.

And get real, the "extinction" of cub art? You must be on crack! When has banning ANYTHING ever led to it's extinction? Or have you just never heard of the Prohibition? Alcohol sure went extinct after that, didn't it? Hey! Pot sure disappeared for good after they banned marijuna, didn't it?

'Cub Porn' is still depicting underage characters in inappropriate situations.
It is still child pornography, and as such, it doesn't even matter if one objects morally, as it is wrong LEGALLY.
If an artist is posting that subject matter in a public forum, then yes, they will get 'fucker over' as you put it. Most people who post illegal content tend to, eventually.

Alcohol and drugs are illegal because they hurt people. Child pronography is different, it's illegal because it propagrates the idea that it is okay. Which, I would suppose, you would recognize as incorrect.

Yeah? So is Yugioh and Naruto hentai/yaoi, yet I don't see anybody throwing a fit at that crowd over at Y!Gallery or anyplace like that.
Additionally, as you may well have read by now in the offical FA statement on this, 'cub porn' and even 'shota' and 'loli' images are NOT illegal as ruled by the Supreme Court of the US of A because they are FICTIONAL representations of non-existing characters. Henceforth, nobody is posting illegal content.

My conclusion, you fail at life, go read a book or something.

The very nature of fur art, as I see it, is the inner representations of REAL people. If You take your adult character and have them raping a 5 year old character, I can't say I like you very much at all. But I suppose you perverts need to get your jack off somewhere - never mind that most pedos who like the toon perversions like the real thing just as well. I hope you get caught, honestly. But here's the kicker, Cybercat can do as she likes and you can't say or do anything about it. So piss off.

Seriously, you're dredging up some months old arguements...you yourself need to piss off.

You put it rough, but you put it well. Art should not suffer limitations in the genre of fiction.

Thank you for having brains :)

What the heck...
how on earth this earlier reply got in wrong place? or did it? Go figure.
The compliment was aimed for LapSeph

Yeah, I gotta say... isn't stuff like this the very thing FA was made to let people escape from?

Seriously, now...

People are starting to take this cub art thing a bit too far.

Don't like, don't look. It's not like every image pops up, screaming "OMG LOOK AT ME", even if you don't like it.

And if you don't like the image, why look at it in the first place? -_-

For those of you who keep saying 'If ya don't like it don't look' I have this to show you. I posted it in another forum but I think more of you need to see it.

"Filters would be nice but the filters we have don't work. Besides that, filters don't stop the fact a type of 'file' exists on the site. Aside me personally being opposed to cub art, I really am concerned about what reprocusions can occur legally for the site hosting such things. Big brother is all about targeting pedophiles right now, as soon as anyone with any power hears that this might be a site that those type of people hang out, it's going to be game over. Not to mention the fact that the chat rooms could become hunting grounds for freaks who DO like to hurt children. As adults, heck as people, we have to be responsible. That means acknowleding what our actions can do, the effects and the ripples. Just because you didn't Intend for something to happen doesn't mean you arn't responsible. If people had more grit, more personal responsiblity and gave a damn about each other more, we'd have a lot less drunk driving accidents, a lot less pollution and a lot less violent problems in the world. Please, please, take a stand. This isn't about Right or Left. This is about doing what is morally and legally best for the site. Don't do a filter for mature cub art just BAN it, filter the other stuff, I'd love that personally love it. Most people have shown they don't care about cub art, they just are afraid of loosing their 'creative freedom'.

"

But if you look inside that thread, someone already posted a link to a Supreme Court ruling AGAINST a ban on fake/rendered "underaged" artwork, so there's not much that "big brother" can do here.

I wish that were true, but I do not believe that. Renderosity banned 'child' artwork using 3d programs, I see no reason why this site cannot do it. Laws are changing all the time, and my position still stands about what the reprocusions can be. I don't want FA to be known on the net as a 'kiddie porn' friendly site. I don't want news agencies and law enforcement types looking for pedos looking for leads at this site either. We have enough problems without this one. It's best to just chuck it .

Well, if they do ban it, then help them wade through the 276,000+ submissions to scan for those images. :P

Sorry hon, I have my hands full with what I do already. It is their site, and as part of hosting it, they aggreed to take responsiblity for their own rules. Besides that, all they'd have to do is ask artists to be responsible, and if something is against the TOS then they can have a 'report' button like they already do.

Yeah, too bad nobody in admin were doing that from the get go like they were supposed to. I don't see why this is THE topic people choose to try to defend. There's other stuff that's banned on FA and nobody is complaining about those (like when they stopped people from posting naked pictures of themselves in 'furry' get ups/ make up.). Nothing like defending the rights of a pedo lover to get their free porn to wake off too. Sigh, Furry (it's turning into a curse word).

"morally" is purly opinion. I personally don't like cub art, but i'm not going to barge into someone's gallery and tell them "YOU CAN'T DRAW THAT BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE IT!!" Live and let live, you know?

I suspect it's not as much about looking at it as allowing it in general. It's basically saying it's okay to fantasize about pedo-situations, and that the site is tacitly expressing that pedophila is acceptable. For those reasons, I find this upsetting.

Just curious, would you be willing to stay if the vote ends on 'allow' but as long as they set up clearly defined and enforced filters?

I'm afraid not. I just think it's unacceptable to allow certain content. The only way to truely voice how strongly I feel about something like that is to leave. I don't want to, but some times you have to stand up for what you believe in.

How dare you have a personal standard and try to stand by your beliefs! Get back in line lemming and just ignore the art that's still there where your art is like everyone else. The nerve of a furry artist trying to have a moral standard of what they think is right or wrong. What do you think you are, an American?

Now hush up and get back to drawing. ; )

Yea stupid me eh? ;)

Amen, hon.

I DO think that FA NEEDS to fix their filtering system then, since it would be their fault for not keeping it working >>

That seems like a better idea than just outright banning stuffs.

In all technicality, it already was banned, it's just no one was willing to try and enforce it.

Ban the shit. People who have paedophilia need to seek help immediately. It's wrong.

You could say the same about people who masturbate to anthropomorphic animals. It's a fetish. You can't really help it if you like it.

I guess so... but if you let your fantasies go too far you could get in deep shit.

We shouldn't be getting a vote.
We don't really have a choice of what goes up on FA. We don't pay for it. It's free. It's a liberal forum for all.

This is just a really stupid argument.

WHY? X( I vote for allow!!! x( oppression is bad for artists!!! I dont like Gay pics but do you see me saying "BAN GAY PICS JUST BECAUSE I DONT LIKE IT" ?

lol @ comments

especially the ones saying "if you don't like it don't look" cos if they practiced what they preached, they wouldn't leave comments on pictures like this XD *coughhypocritecough*

Good try, but your logic is flawed. You make the assumption that we have some moral outrage at a pic like this, when all I feel from it is a sense of disappointment. Therefore, there's no hipocrisy, and your argument is really rather pointless.

Oh, I say, Charles. Fill me up with some more big peoples words!

Unfortunately it ain't easy like that to just ignore it. A lot of people are too stupid to tag their PoS as Babyfur - Adult, leaving it exposed to us. Also, you're looking through browse and see a preview thumbnail. "Oh this sounds good regarding what the comment says(in which the comment mentions nothing about it, maybe just a retarded X3 smiley)"
and boom, your eyes are melting off your sockets.

First of all, If hypocrisy and assumption are big people's words, than I'd hate to think of the state of education where you're from.

Second of all, the sounding good regarding what the comment says... a retarded X3 smiley makes a pic sound good?

Lastly, babyfur adult is not the Ark of the Covenant. You're either overreacting, or you've had eye issues for a damn long time.

To be honest, you got me good with your first statement. :)

The comment, itself(X3), says nothing. So maybe the viewer depicts it as simply harmless. I've had experiences in the past.
Don't get me completely wrong. I think anthro cubs are cute, but not when they're doing nasty shit.

Now go get some fresh air and exercize, my well-fed friend.

It was directed at those who seem to think that she has no right to post this. You might feel only slight disappointment but that doesn't go for everyone unfortunately.

not really. a "Hyprocrite" would be telling you not to draw this. This is merly a case of replying to your opinion with our own.

On ban.
I totally agree with you.

Ban this shit, there are limits, and that limit will step through if this shit will be allow.
Ban.

mature != porn. Unfortunately, if the ban passes as-is, a lot more art is going to be forced down than people realize.

Thats just it. Why should /children/ be in /mature/ situations to begin with.

I've given examples before (in various places). But a couple I could come up with:

An artist wants to emotionally vent about a childhood friend that they fought a lot with. They draw themself and their friend fighting as cubs, with bruises and blood. Mature = banned.

An artist wants to vent about being neglected as a kid. They draw their parents off doing something mature/adult rated with themselves, as a cub, blocked from view of their parents, but in the picture. Mature = banned.

An artist wants to express themselves having always been beat on and picked on as a kid. They draw themselves as a cub in some "defeated" position with bruises and cuts. Mature = banned.

Breast feeding. Boobs = mature = banned. A cub innocently playing around in a bathtub, trying to defeat their parent's attempts to clean them, drawn anatomically correctly. Mature = banned.

Such pics shouldn't be allowed?

Then you need to define what "cub" is. Under 18? Under 16? 13? How do you determine age? How do you differentiate age from style?

Mature to me means 'sexually explicit'. However if some one needs to vent like that, there are plenty of other websites that can provide a showcase for that type of art.

But again, where's the cut-off? The admins had/have no clue, even when they initially asked. As far as I've seen, anyone who's voted in favor of the ban hasn't been able to provide a clear definition either. They all assume mature = sex and fought about the morality of cub porn, when no. mature = Mature Content or Adult Content tagged pictures (or pictures that are supposed to be tagged such), and no one stopping to think about what is meant by "cub", other than going on their own pre-conceived assumptions.

So the ban passing will get rid of any Mature or Adult Content rated pic that includes a cub, regardless of what the cub's doing or what causes the rating, using an un-conceived notion of what a "cub" is. Every FA user and every FA admin will have their own opinion.

I think it's probably safe to say that:

~ if the cub has an underaged body according to the style it's drawn in (which in most of the worst cases really just looks like a preteen human body) with obviously immature genitalia IN A SEXUAL SITUATION. Especially where they are being fondled or penetrated by an obviously adult character.

That shit IS on the site and it's being protected by people like you who claim that the only "mature cub art" in existance is the stuff that the pedos aren't interested in. Anything else, like the situations you mentioned are not anywhere near the level of child rape that most of us are disgusted by and find so unacceptable. You can tell the difference between things that are art and making a statement, and things that are simply pornographic.

yeah, I agree. And wasn't this place meant to be one of them?

Breastfeeding, bathing, and general nakedness is natural. Shoving your finger in a toddler's ass while sporting a huge boner isn't. THAT is the difference between pedophilic art and "other".

That's exactly the point, though. All of that will go. Any pic, marked Mature or worse, for any reason (general, non-sexual nudity is supposed to be marked Mature), that has a cub in it, will be banned.

Of course, we can always hope the admins have some brains and recognize the difference.. but as it was asked, it's everything non-General with a cub (and again, without being told what constitues a cub).

But if "mature" = "softcore" or "sexually themed", it's not any better.

Voted for the ban, btw.

I'm personally not against mature cub art, though i am against adult cub art.

If we ban mature we wouldnt be able to draw images similar to those seen in Akira or children in war or even children kissing one another. Heck we wouldnt even be able to show almost any emotional pictures featuring cubs. And you can forget about fantasy imagery as well, there are many fantasy characters that fight monsters and are underage. Pretty much every japanese RPG is like that.

Ban the pedo stuff but don't make young characters off limits to story telling :(

An example of what I mean, drawn by Kacey:
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/173474/

It falls into the mature cub category and I don't see anything wrong with it.

Already voted for the ban. I'm with you, I'm leaving if its not banned. I have principles. I don't expect anyone else to agree with me, its a personal decision.

Here, I'll make you a deal.
If we ban cub-art, then we have to ban the following things as well:
-vore
-snuff
-rape
-bloodplay
-scat
-watersports
-the extreme/super-heavy fetishes

Because, as you and many people find cub reprehensible, I'm sure there's just as many people who find the above just as bad...

This is where the argument has become very unstable. Many have turned into a battle for legality. Pedophillia is indeed illegal, reprehensible, and should not be tolerated, but doing this means that if we are going to remain within legal bounds that all other things that depict illegal content have to be purged aswell.

As a nutral on this subject I have a problem with where things will go after they ban 'mature cub art'. Where will the line be drawn? Both sides continue making points but how long can we continue to appease both sides till all that remains to draw is to characters fully clothed just looking straight ahead with little to no expression because this is what it's come to?

I personally don't like the fact that artists are leaving pending the outcome of this poll. No one wins no matter what the outcome.

The line was drawn when they made the original TOS, and since that time all the other weird fetishes people have hadn't been touched, Frankly, if they had just enforced the rules that have been stated since the site first went online, none of use would be having this conversation right now.

And people int his fandom, for once, should applaude people who are showing they actually have some sort of personal character and are willing to take action for what they believe in, rather than just having the whole 2000's apathy, whatever, attitude many people have today. Standing up for what you believe in used to be a good thing, odd who we pick the ones who stand up for some crazy things as good examples and ones who stand up against things that should be a no brainer and dis them. What a Bizzaro world we live in today.

This is true, and I agree that standing up for what you believe in is appludeable, but as I had stated in my journal now. "Walking away from a fire that is burning in the woods while others stand there and watch it is just as bad." The fire will still burn no matter what. Those of us that are nutral are looking at the fire consume itself. Indeed we are doing nothing but we can dictate the occurances. News reporters are just that way aswell, though I'm not trying to compair those nutral like myself to someone actually reporting something of note, but it does make sense. I'm more than willing to stand up for what I believe, but some arguments aren't worth fighting over.

Then she should keep her art on a site that would support pedophilic artwork, even though she personal doesn't,.....why?

Tend to the good crops. The bad will rot away leaving nutriants for those that stayed. I don't want this to be a post war, so lemme just say this. Everyone has their reasons for what they do, but as I said before, this altercation will yield no winners

The "domino effect" is a very slippery argument to stand on.

You know why that's a stupid argument? Because NONE of them Involve KIDS, and if it did it'd be considered cub-art. You're arguement for a slippery slope FAILS.

Those goofy fetishes almost always invole adult looking furries not kids.

Wich is difference between mature pictures and mature cub O.O ?

It's a big difference. Adults for the most part make an informed choice. Children are not mentally nor emotionally ready for adult situations. True 'no one is getting hurt' in the image. It's fantasy. The issue here it is fodder for people who want to, will, can, and may some day hurt children. I may not have children, but I do know some who have been sexually abused by adults. I don't want those type of dangerous people useing this site for their hunting grounds, nor do I want this site targeted by officals hunting for those people. Basically it just brings way too much unwanted and unneeded attention to our comminity. And by allowing that type of content we risk loosing everything. It is a small price to pay to have a wonderful site to share and communicate with each other responsibly.

I may vote to ba them... but i can't login in the forum :( :( :( ...

The forum is a seperate system from the site itself.

So you need to register even if you already have a FA password set.

I'm with you on this one, milady. I've already put my vote on ban.

Ban it, it is a danger to the site itself. Any site that depicts under age people (in this case furries) in sexual situations with the intention of arousing someone is considered illegal. I don't know if they would consider baby fur in that or not, considering it's not actually people. But they are going around busting any place that may support pedophillia.

Not to mention that pedophilia is considered a dangerous mental illness.

I voted ban and the ban faction lays ahead with one single vote atm. Also, the thread got locked and the admins and mods will make a decsion tommorrow. I dont think the poll will be taken as a base for the decsion anway.

I already wrote pms to monds and posted in the foum and said why it should be banned. I did what I could do and I would be sad if you leave over all this, its not worth it.

Dont give them a reason to flame you, just stay. I dont belive that cub-porn will get allowed here, nor do they will ban it, they will sty on the status quo they they had all the time.

The stuff was posted since the beginning of FA and even if the TOS dosent allows it, there is a gray area.

If the topic never had brought be up in the first place, then all this never had happen.

Leave if you wish; good riddance if you do. There are more important things in this world to be upset over than whether or not Cyb0rk@t111 gets to draw cub secks. This type of knee-jerk overreaction to irrelevant topics is 90% of what is wrong with the world today; want to take a stand for something worthwhile? Start urging more people to donate to the Red Cross.

Please note that I am not accusing the OP of drawing cub porn; I typed the first random name that came to mind, and it happened to be similar to the OPs. This is coincidental.

Now I don't know if this has been said before here in this thread, but I thought that pedophilia in art might be a positive thing, as it is a medium where no child gets hurt in the production. If a pedophile can jerk off his frustrations over some pieces of art rather than some photos that would be good, right? Because then he can do it without hurting anyone.

But I don't know, maybe things go deeper than that. If it's like a drug where you want more and more and after a while crave the real thing I can understand your viewpoint. But I am not that informed about the particulars of how pedophilia works.

i think they dont do that for the same reason you dont let a 5yearold watch jackass they might think its ok to do it for real

That would require a big level of immaturity. But then, I think I am going to choose a side and say that the ban is a good thing. I mean, you have to be pretty immature to be a pedophile... Well, empathically challenged at the least.

Filters do not work because the poster's do not set them.

If you see that happen, report it. Make sure they put the filter to their work.

It's, frankly, irresponsible not to set one's filters when posting an image.

this is a very complexed probblem one the one hand people have the right to draw what they feel like but on the other hand theres what is just unsuitable

if you saw a small child naked you call it child porn if that child is wearing wings and calling her a fairy i still feel its child porn if you put fur a tail and cat ears on the child IF you can see everything as it was in the last 2 forms then i still think of it AS CHILD PORN!

this is my point of veiw

Nice picture. I despise cub porn myself but I can't vote for or against it because it's against my basic principles as an artist to be able to draw what you want without being censored or silenced, but also against my PERSONAL MORALS to condone drawing certain things.

Its amazing how a person supports one side, and the other just starts beating on the other.

I think people need to realize that having an artist, well known or not, sharing their work with the public is a privilege. Not a right. If an artist decides that we are no longer worthy of their time and efforts, they may go elsewhere.

Either way, I have no idea why people think that an threatening to leave cause of an issue that is not met in their favor is considered, "Unfair, or taking candy from a baby." Sorry, baby been a bad baby, no candy for baby.

Anyways, I already voted ban. So not much more I can do to help. :-/

This Sort of thing becomes most harmful once people start arguing about it. For one, We all know that that sort of thing is wrong. Just because there are oppenions on them doesn't make them any less so. But I have to say that I agree with you Cyber. Thanks for doing this at your own expense. Sorry it is coming to this, because I enjoy being here and seeing your work.

I really hope it doesn't come to your leaving. But what I hate about some of the above comments is the hostility. So Cyber is against it. I am too. If you have a problem with it, than that means there is a whole hell of a lot more of us you have to face when you state you support the damn material.

tssss, this is just silly. DOn't want to see ? don't see heh :/

I suffer of some "pedo " yeah as a victim, but I voted allow, all this is just silly,...

It's art, noboby's hurt. I really cannot understand. I this case you also better ban rape, tentacle, multi-penises, bdsm and especially all pics stuff with weapons in it. *shaking the head*

I won't argue the point of art, but I will note this. My father is retired law enforcement. He has served in MANY different areas. Today I asked him of a theory I was aware of, psychological and criminal escalation.

This is a theory that is satistically sound and that law enforcement does indeed use and believe in.

Escalation does not only happen with sex crimes, it occurs in many other avenues such as violence against women and warfare.

Many violators start out with 'innocent' habits such as viewing online kiddie porn. But soon like a drug, an image isn't enough. Soon they begin looking for a bigger better high. They start taking their own pictures of children. Then they start chatting online, doing cybersex with clueless kids. The next thing you know they've taken it to the next level and some child some where is either dead or scared for life. It is true that not everyone who likes rape porn, or kiddie porn is going to some day become a criminal.. but it does provide a perfect cultivation spot for this type of criminal behavor. As responsible adults we need to limit the resources of this material to protect ourself and our children. Those are the facts folks. You don't have to believe me, but search the web and you'll find plenty of reference. Speak to local friends involved with law enforcement and they'll tell the truth.

Since the 80ies, when I was a teenager, I follwed discussons if horror movies and pictures force people to act violent. Until today, they argue about what's wrong and what's right. The ony fact I know is, people who murder after watching a movie, were always mentally disordered long time before.
But I cannot imagine that nice drawn furry "cubbie porn" will force someone to do this in reality with a human child. If you think else, it's your freedom to do so, sure. But to me it's a start of censorship.

I never said it would force some one. I said it can aid in helping some one overcome their hesitation in committing a crime.

I do believe that modern people have become insensitized to violence. I won't say if it's good or bad. I do believe something like that needs a case by case basis. Do i support horror movies? No. Do I hate people who watch them? Not at all. All I am saying is there is evidence and law enforcement have seen a pattern in escalation between child porn and sex crimes.

I also think it is very sad that so many people think that all censorship is wrong. It isn't. What is wrong is extremes. Going to extreme in just about anything causes a problem. A country without laws has anarcy. A country with too many laws has unrest. Both ways people end up hurt or dead. But there is a happy medium in all things. In religion, in state or national law, even in art. But a happy medium does have boundries and limitations.

oopse, insensitize = desensitized. Sorry about that.

but who's to say those pedophiles wouldn't have gone out and committed those horrible acts if they had NOT seen the pictures (in this case, drawings of animal-people, not humans!) beforehand?

566 Lift the ban
567 Keep the ban

I pose an honest morality question.

Let us say that you get your art published. Let us say it ends up in thousands of bookstores across the country (countries). These art and bookstores also sell books of art and photography which house -mature- child photography and art.

That was the issue mature cub art, not porn.
There is a huge difference between the two. One involves sexual situations, one does not.

Somehow, the moment "mature" and "cub" were thrown together, it became a contest to see who could shout "Pedophile" the loudest, when that was neither the purpose, nor intent.

Back to my statement, however. Would you pull your book from a publisher for putting it in bookstores who order from a distributor who also sells art and photography books that depict minors in the nude?

If i knew about it yes. I would ask them not to sell my art.

This is one of those situations that will never be resolved, never! It's argument is as old as time and everyone's opinion 'counts' (at least in our democracy)

I didn't get a chance to vote, It was locked before I even got there. My take on it is, I'm not into it but if no one's being hurt in RL, can I really smack someone upside the head for doing it? Can someone smack me upside the head for doing furry art, thinking I was into RL Beastiality?

I drew a picture for a friend in Japan, his character is of age but small in size, hard to say. I've draw some Gnomes from WOW, legal age but made people uncomfortable, again hard to say. In the end, I guess it's all about intent.

It's a fine line that will stay that way til world's end and the unfortunate truth is that no matter what we do, it'll continue on, all we can do is be wary and keep an eye out for each other. Do what you can but don't kill yourself doing it.

In the end, I'd miss your work here Kitty but I'll understand and back you up in your decision. Good luck to us all.

I'm sorry you are taking the neutral stance Max. The problem with it is, there is the capacity for ill to come to children. Kiddie porn is an enabler and escalation tool. It can and does allow predators to get up the courage to hit the next step, which can be hurting some one. I'm not saying any one should get beaten because of what they draw, but I am saying the community should enforce a minimum of control of what we allow posted here. For the safty of children and for ourselves too.

You are so closed minded.

Not like me I have the opposite opinion of you and am equally unwavering in it, that makes me open minded.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I have very liberal views that concern others even if I myself hold myself to very strict code of conduct. I believe gays should have the right to marry, I believe every one has the right to believe or not believe in any diety they wish. I'm even pro-choice. I'm for the enviroment. I vote democrat or independant in most elections.

Yeup. I'm so darn closed minded.

Why do you hate our troops.

Did I say that? I think you are putting words into my mouth and that is highly unsanitary.

I have nothing against the armed forces. My family on both sides have served in several brances of the USA' armed services.

I was under the assumption you were aware of my sarcasm since my first comment.

Fraid not hon, sarcasm is often lost on text. I've never been very good at figureing out when some one is joking or not.

Your satire is a bit thick, but I like it that way... carry on.

All this cubfur business is distracting from my gothy poetry I was so proud of.

LoL.

If being against what equates to child pornography with ears and tails makes me close minded then burn it into my fur because I'd be proud to carry that title.

Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out. Whoops. :)

Simple answer: NO!

I've already cast my vote for the ban, but... gee, this thing is really driving me nuts. 8|
I personally hate this kind of art, as well as rape "art" and other abuses, but... why leaving? Will this make the gallery better, in any way? No, it will just strip it away of some well-done and tasteful pictures!

This is a valid point.

what it will do is show how strongly I dislike this idea. Some times sacrifice is needed. I am willing to loose friends. I am willing to close off an avenue of great exposeure. It hurts me in the end yes, but I will gladly take it if it will show people how strongly I feel about this topic. Most people don't care about the cub issue, their issue is censureship. If my leaving will make one of the fence sitters change their position, then I will be happy. As the saying goes, all Evil needs to succeed is for good men and women to stand by and do nothing.

I just think that leaving is useless. But I won't try to change your mind; it's your choice, after all.

Amen.

I think this is an adorable pic, actually. I love the look on the caracal's face.

P.S... yes, that was a serious comment! Not snarky. I really do think you captured a good, sad look.

hehe Thanks =)

I've all but left this site as it is. I got a bit sick of hearing about all the drama that happens around here anyway, and it sickened me to know that the furry equivalant of child porn was being posted here. Espeically since, every so often I'd see a thumbnail for it on the front page. (No clicky for me! >.<) I honestly don't think it should even be an issue. People may argue that if you ban 'cub porn' you might as well ban BDSM, scat, vore and a variety of other "offensive" fetish porn. But atleast those are more than often enough depicted with consenting adults and not with children.

The thread was closed by the time I found out about it but I did vote to ban it on Xian Jaguar's LJ community. I was assured that the FA devs would be looking at that one as well.

And don't pay any attention to those who complain when you leave, Cybercat. People don't like it when artists threaten to take a stand against something that's important to them. If they really respected you as an artist, they would respect your values as well, even if they didn't coincide with their own, and either watch you on your devart page or bookmark it.

Luckily hardly anyone seemed to notice when I left. >.>; *knocks on wood*

Amen. <:3 *huggles ya'* ;3 I stand behind you on this controversial and important subject.

hehehehehe.... controversial theme... XD....

if cub art remains,... you leave... (cub still here and you still here too)

if cub art its banned.... a lot of people leave... (cub art isnt banned and a lot of people isnt leave)

i say..... 50%/50%

cub art, you and others still here...

i dont like cub porn, i dont see cub porn, and no one its marking me like a pedo (i think =p).

Dont know why everyone make of this theme a war... like drugs... -9.9-... well...

Only.... dont try to force anyone to accept your demands threaten with leaving FA.

This always be a delicate subjet and like i see polls... always be 50%/50%.

Fine, leave Cybercat. Your only going to be hurting yourself.

On the same vain, I think that A) mature cub art shouldn't be allowed, and B) Your acting very childish by trying to sway peoples votes. That is a very dishonorible and undemocratic of you.

I'm sorry you think i'm being childish. I haven't called any one names, I haven't been rude to any one. The only name calling has been from people like you. Last I checked that was considered childish. In fact, all I've done is stand up for my beliefs which to most people is a honorable and democrating thing to do. In the end I'm the one who has to be able to sleep at night with the effect to of my decision. If you think I'm going to feel bad for considering leaving because I want to protect myself from proscution and keep another place from becoming a haven for pedophiles, well sir, or madam, you would be quite incorrect. Have a good day. I hope your sleep is equally as tranquill, tho I doubt it will be.

Most people don't see bribary as 'honorible' or 'democratic', which, no matter how you dress it up, is exactly what you are doing.

You are attempting to 'bite off your nose to spite your face' with this 'omg! I'll leave if you don't vote to ban', which is exactly what a child would say/do. Your leaving will not harm us in anyway, on any level. Dispite what you say. You are free to leave to 'protect yourself' from the art, but it is very immature of you to use it to add a bias to those who are voting.

I can 'sleep easy' because I'm not the one trying to sway people to my opition; as far as I can see, Dragoneer should have locked the thread to posts when he posted it, and banned any journals on the topics inorder to make sure the results are less flawed by people like you.

if attempting to sway people's opinions is so wrong, why are you trying to sway mine by continuingly insulting me? Look, I grow weary of this nonsense. You don't agree with me, that's fine. You don't have to. Paint me the villian if it makes you feel better.

If my art and opinions offend you so much Feel free to stop reading my journal and go on your merry way.

Sad...so sad. Everyone BELIEVES something different and SHARES a free space. If for no other reason than that personal beliefs are just that,PERSONAL, I'm against the ban. Because I'm against religous right/facisim/socialism/your PERSONAL belief...whatever. Everyone must bend in a public setting. EVERYONE. Don't like it? Then leave and good riddance.
p.s. I don't even look at cub porn and btw It is NOT hard to avoid!

So everyone should bend to how YOU think instead. Ok. Gotcha. And I never even thought this was a religious matter. What athethist are cool with pedophilic artwork or something? I thought an 'ew' reaction to such a thing would be a normal human reaction, but then, heh, this is furry, where I'm learning anything and everything is 'cool'.

the latest poll results show that it will be ban by one vote :)

none of this should be happening anyways. d=
Wasn't it already banned in the first place?

I just wonder this.

ARE YOU STUPID IDOITS?! BAN this so called "mature" cub art. I've seen enough of it already, it's sick, gorss & digusting. People fail to label these in the right area, also when they submit it, the thumbnail doesn't show correctly & says something you think is really neat, but once it's open, it's SICK!

The filters aren't working very well in the first place, people mislabel what the art is, or not enough labels, ever notice when it ask for what catagory it's under, only 1 catagory, they should have more.

I've seen incest already on this site, Underage as well. I care not to see anymore.. *pukes*

My Vote, BAN! I ain't gonna be on a site that allowes Kiddie porn either. Got enough sickos out in the world, don't need to add gas to the fire already.

It's illegal in practice, and for VERY good reasons, and demented in concept. There's absolutely no reason it should be allowed, and I'm appaled (yet not surprised) that it's even up for debate.

If it passes I'm going to leave too, I refuse to be seen among it.

Sad that statement didn't Hold true.

I'm hoping to make a bigger statement with an appealing gallery containing all G rated material. =/

Good call.

If your that lazy or ignorant enough to leave rather have a filter on cub art/porn so you don't have to see it in the first place. Then go on ahead. You deserve no sympathy. That's a childish move. Leave cuz you don't like a certain fetish. And instead of taking initiative and responsibility, you guys will cop out and go somewhere else.

You guys really disgust me. You really do

Well, the first thing there, the filters need to be fixed. I've got a few active, and they're not working.

I'd say that well-drawn cub art is still better than some of the MS-Paint shit people post up on here anyway. Cubs aren't my thing, but I guarantee that if you took "normal" furotica and showed it to random people it'd get the same "sick, depraved, and perverse" labels.

Everyone's got their kinks, and as long as they aren't hurting anyone or anything then that's their business and it's wrong for others to judge and impose restrictions on them. Getting huffy because a certain type of fetish material that you don't like is being hosted on a public site is like trying to stop breathing air because pedophiles breathe air. And by posting an ultimatum and holding your precious art hostage unless cub art is banned is really asinine in my honest opinion. I'm not trying to sound hostile, but I'd vote for you to leave.

Thanks for posting this, would not have known that it was going on without it. Sadly, it appears the polls are closed, else there would have been another one for "no."
Im very open-minded, but I view anything involving minors & sex is wrong. Someone who gets turned on by a sexually immature individual has some serious problems & NEEDS help.

What... what the fuck is a "mature cub"? I mean, the words contradict. Explain what it is I'm voting against. Naturally any child porn should be banned outright, lest this turn into that shithole paedophilic safehouse, Y's gallery. But really, what is a "mature cub" plz?

is this sarcasm or an honest question? I can't tell.

Sarcasm wastes time that I do not have.

Mature cub art is Mature = sexually explicit cub art.

That is, art of cubs, or younger/baby furries in adult sexual situations.

I find that horribly mixed up

When they're working, otherwise, they don't work.

No, I'm saying that the filters arn't working, I should know, cause I have several filters checked, and they still show up for me.

Oh, I got ya. A website's filter doesn't work properly so rather than work on fixing it and making the site better for all, let's just get rid of the stuff I don't want to look at. GREEAAAT! I suppose next, when a person that doesn't like gay porn accidently sees some, THAT should be banned too. Heck, why stop there? Let's say someone didn't want to see porn at all on this "freedom of expression" site and accidently sees it anyway, let's ban that too. It may not be the fairest approach, but it sure is the easiest.

I know that this is an /old/ picture, but I will say this, it doesn't help that FA hasn't gotten their head out of their asses and not fixed several things, the search engine, the filters and other things.

As long as the filters remain down, these kinda things are going to happen, and once the filters get into place, reports about people not using them will happen.

So you support cub porn?

Oh, Lord. Not another one.

You know what? Just go. If delivering ultimatums to get your watchlist to vote along with you is a dirty tactic.

If you don't like the art, don't look at it if you see the thumbnail. Or use filters. I think that guro art is far more morally wrong than cubporn. But I'm not going to theaten a departure if it isn't banned.

Let's all be mature about this. We're all grown ups (I hope). For more of my musings, please see my journal on the subject:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/51055/

Ignoring behavior is on par with openly supporting it.

If you're refering to the pedophilia that is supposedly commited by all artists who draw cub art, I again refer you to my journal, good sir.

But no, it isn't. Because this is an art site. And I'd hate to tell you, but there are these things called 'kinks' out there. And not everyone's 'kinks' are nessicarily the same as yours. I don't support the exploitaion of real children in the slightest. Or of real life vore, or guro, or scat. Which is WHY having safe places to have art depicting those kinks is important. Because without such places, the people with those kinks will snap.

I hate the whole "if you don't like it, don't look at it" argument. It's SICK stuff.

Those of us that have morals - and don't try arguing "what is moral?" because NO WAY in Hell, Heaven OR Earth is CHILD PORNOGRAPHY moral - will leave the rest of you to wallow in the cess pool that is disgusting child-fetish art.

What about the cesspool that is guro art? Or the cesspool that is scat? Or Watersports? Or BDSM? Or homosexuality? Or polygamous sex? Or public sex? Or unorthidox sexual positions?

The question you stated I am not aloud to use as a reasonable argument must be stated, because everyone has a different stance on 'morality', especially when it comes to sexuality. The opinions on what is a 'cesspool' differs as much as the colour of our skin (or fur)

I myself have a problem with cubporn. I also have a problem, in real life, with the general lack of monogamy in the world. But I'm also gay.

Now you see where individual opinion and perspective must be at least considered.

Again, as was said above - that's done by two (or more) concenting adults, and it's done for fun on both sides (even the rape stuff, some people like to play act that stuff). Anyone who gets their rocks off by looking a young child being sexually abused...upsets me. And a great many others.

I'm with you on this one. "Mature" should be defined strictly, however. Reasonable storytelling should be alright, but I am most certainly against kind of sexual exploitation in regards to underaged depictions of characters, anthro or otherwise.

You dont have to leave just because somethings on a site you dont like thats really sad.... Ill go back to my side now and shush.

"If they start allowing mature cub art, I think I'll leave the site.

I really REALLY REALLY don't want to. So if you'd like to keep seeing my art here! Vote no! "

That is so damn pathetic.

They "started" allowing it before you first arrived here. So, to be true to your statement, you should have left right then.

no the tos said no child porn. I thought that anything that 'accidently' ended up on the site would be deleted.

I didn't go looking for that stuff to make sure it wasn't there.

Then you agree that there isn't even enough 'mature cub' pics for this to even be an issue if you yourself say you don't support it and that if it's allowed you'll leave? It's like saying, if I see any blue footed boobies I'm going to shoot myself. They exsist I know, I've seen pictures, but I've never actually SEEN one cause I live in the US east coast. It's a non-issue.

So you're basically saying that she's not allowed to leave the site because she hasn't seen any cub art personally? In fact, she's not allowed to leave the site until she sees something that disturbs her? Can't she make this decision based on not wanting to see it in the first place, or is that too much to ask?

Did say she wasn't allowed to leave. On a side note, this subject's been dead and gone for a month or so now and someone's still trying to drudge it up? *shrug* Just let it drop already.

My bad. I didn't see the date until after I'd made several comments. My apoligies.

No hard feelings, on just a side they should add an edit button cause I ment to say "didn't say she couldn't leave".

They're all pink on the inside!

I don't see why it should be removed. If the good lord wanted types of porn to be banned, he wouldn't have invented filters ;) If you don't like it, don't look at it.

I just don't think it's fair to tell someone they can't draw what they like to draw simply because the website's filter just happened to not work properly. Can't we just get a better filter?

No one is saying people can't draw it. These artists do not want it on FA for reason. Even with a filter, some feel Cub Porn is too close to pedophilia. Infact, if an outsider came to see the artwork, they would most likely think it is pedophiliac art. What some of them fear is that even though they may not partake in drawing it, people will try to connect them to it just because others on the site draw it.

I am very disgusted at the people calling others fucktards simply for expressing their opinions on the matter. The only fucktard there is is the one labeling the other a fucktard.

I agree with that. Calling someone a fucktard only makes YOU a fucktard.
But if you're going to ban everything simply because of what someone else thinks, then everything will get banned.

One thing that I think this is happening, is because it became a deal.

But please, don't leave because of something like this. Just leave the things that make the world stop alone...

I know this, because I've heard many oppositions, but there also some defensive issues that seem to be briniging the whole ordeal apart...

But other than that, please don't... reasons, well, my journal should explain as well...

Don't let these people get you down. If there is no ban on cub art, I will be leaving, too.

People say, "Stay to better the site!" My art is too good for a site - and a crowd of viewers - that allows child pornography.

That's all that it is, plain and simple. It's disgusting, disturbing, and wrong.

HollyAnn linked to a web site called JaxPad that has a rating up to PG-13. I think I will be taking my business there.

Hang in there, I support you in this. =)

bllllllllackmail

when did they decide this?

Damnit man... I loved your art. I think the cub thing was a near tie. One vote difference. so its likely to be overruled if they did a revote.

Don't get all emo about this man..

Some voted against the ban as they feared that this would lead to other stuff being banned via slippery slope. I'm no fan of Cubporn myself but I think a mandatory warning thumbnail could be a good comprimise. If they don't they get 1 warning then temp ban and/or offensive pic removed.

Also 4chan's /b/ may have skewed the vote as the days before the final total was tabulated and they 4chan is always pro-loli/shota and thus pro-cub and they knew they'd stir up trouble. I suggest a 2nd vote

No matter what your point of view, I respect your decision to move on, I respect that you are taking a stand for what you believe is right, and I sure as Hell respect you as an artist and person. We each must do what we’re comfortable with and what we feel is right.

No matter where you show your art, I’ll always be a huge fan.

Peace, love, and happiness to you, Stephie. *bearhugs*

*Can hear the Law & Order: Special Victims Unit theme song*

And just so you know, if I knew about it before hand I would have voted against it. I'm going to miss your art...then again, i'm on DA too soo...

Take care! If its gets too weird (i'm still confused as to what went on while I was away with WoW) I might have to skiddadle too. Child pr0n is bad in any circle...even if its fictional. I can't even comprehend really why anyone would want to allow this- be it for artistic freedom or not. :/

Jesus Christ! This has gone on tooo long!

are you kidding me? They allowed it?! *sighs*...well..at least i'll still see you on DA

I haven't drawn / watched, nor searched a single mature / adult cub themes, but what I see here repulses me more then cub art, you're throwing walls before the art, telling this fictional thing is good and that is not. There where walls stand, will be will ot break them, and once wal is broken, it doesn't matter how far after it you run, as you've already behind the wall, setting clear lines on something like this just risks for more extreme cases.

Not only it, but I could not remain in such dictatorial site myself, which practises such hypocricy

Freedom is more effective moral upkeeper then chains and absolute rules.

If you're against that artistic freedom, I am just glad you're gone. As you do not deserve the freedom you try to take from others.

Cub art wasn't the issue here, what really was on the line of fire here was the freedom of expression.
Pedophilia I resent, i believe pedophiles should be punished with death penalty, but it is in their case act of crime, not case of random fiction.
The moment you say fiction is potentially criminal, you are saying all potentially criminal fiction should be banned, movies, comics, and why do you think just sexuality is so horrible? why bloodsport or goreplay, and such fictions of violence make you leave this and deviant art all emocry way?

Because you're full of it, that's why.

Some people just don't know the limits of decency

Decency is a social construct. The limits exist everywhere, unless the community sets such limits explicitly. That's why we vote.

Apathy and lack of aspiration are the problems, not decency.

*Acorndeer: "Freedom is more effective moral upkeeper then chains and absolute rules."

Total freedom means no morals, because nobody has to respect the freedom of other people.

I'd feel better about the vote if there weren't so many fake accounts created just to sway the results. That should say a lot about the people involved. But, it's not illegal to be an asshole.

Oh please, everyone's messing with the people who don't have a problem with this "Cub Porn" because Cyber Cat is a well known artist and most furries are ass kissers =/

Let's settle this now and forever, shall we?

Point one; those who fap to animals really don't have much moral ground in yelling against the immoralities of people who fap to kids. You can accuse furries of being into bestiality and you can accuse those of us who draw yiffy cubs of actually hurting children. You're a dumbass either way.

Point 2: It's not child abuse, it's INK ON FOTHERMUCKING PAPER!!! You can't molest something that doesn't actually exist.

My POV has always been that I'd much rather have some pedo tied up at home lookin' though tons of webpages of kiddie drawings than sexually frustrated and out scouting bus stops and playgrounds.

I, personally, would sooner be executed than harm a living child, and I'm fully in favor of brutally punishing anyone selfish, cruel and evil enough that they can't separate their fantasis from reality. Masturbate to anything you want, I say, but leave it at home or start lubin' up that asshole for some richly-deserved prison rape. Cub porn does not bring about child abuse any more than Kill Bill causes decapitations in real life. It might give someone an idea, but crimes are only committed by people who are too deranged to care about others' suffering IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Hooray for reason!

1. Many of us don't fap to animals. We fap to the images of people's souls...never minding that they look animalistic. Fapping to real life animals is something very different. If your soul is innocent and childlike, I don't want to see it raped, kthx. I think that's disgusting - but more importnatly, I don't want to see your soul actively raping children or child-like images. Because, to be honest, if that's your soul, it's ugly to my eyes, and it disgusts me.

2. It's not child abuse, but it harbours the sense, desire and drive of child abuse. To me, that's harmful, and it's disgusting.

And what about those guys who look at the real stuff - the guys who work in children's hospitals who get arrested for having kiddie porn on their computers. They're deemed unsafe by the popular media. Are you going to tell me that if you found out that the guy who is taking care of your kids while they're sick is touching himself at night to images of kids being raped is an okay guy? I mean, he's not making this stuff up himself. He's just getting off to it.

No. There is no difference. Especially since as a fur you tend to see everyone as furs, even if they claim not to be. Thus I wouldn't want to be handing my kid over to guys who fap to mature cub art (in which the cub is being raped). I'm sorry but you can't "end of discussion" this one.

Yeah actually, I can 'end of discussion'. Why? Because your arguments are weak, overly emotional and devoid of logic.

1. I don't know about you, but I think if you asked most furries (except Arokha) they'd say that no, they are not fapping to "people's souls", they are indeed fapping to images of anthropomorphic animals. Among them Gadget, Minerva, and the entire cast of Sonic X. That's pretty straightforward. I don't know where you got this weird 'soul' idea.

My whole point here was that it's easy to be disgusted by something from a distance if you don't bother for a second to understand it. What part of 'most cub artists do not have any interest in real children just like most furries have no interest in bestiality' is hard to understand!?

2. No, it doesn't. Cub porn *in and of itself* does not "harbor the spirit of child abuse". I'm sure it's easy to hate it if you choose to view it that way. I'll admit I've seen some fucked up cub images, but that's because _any_ fetish will have both relatively tame pics and stomach-turning pics. It's not the fetish's fault; it's the minds of the people who are into it. Speaking personally, 90% or so of my cub stuff is done from the cub's point of view. Just like babyfurs who don't want anything to do with real babies, with my art I'm _imagining_ what it'd be like to Be A Cub Myself and also be yiffy. I had a horrible childhood, am *intimately* acquainted with child abuse myself, and am just trying to use my creativity to make myself happy.

That said, I have seen PLENTY of cub images that ARE very much about rape, and those ones make me want to vomit. Be angry at them; fine. I don't mind. Just don't say that ALL cub artists are evil baddy-bads just because SOME are. That's my big point; blanket generalizations are harmful.

And, because it needs to be said again: getting angry at cub porn is pointless because Anthropomorphic Animal Children Do Not Really Exist And Therefore Cannot Be Molested. If someone's drawing graphically realistic images of *human* children being raped, then maybe you can worry about them.

3. I've never heard anything on the news about anyone getting arrested at a children's hospital for having kiddie porn. I'm sure it happens, but I know for a fact there's no army of child molesting nurses out there. (That's what the *church* is for) This is called a 'straw man' argument: making up an exaggerated situation that doesn't exist in order to make your opponent's argument look foolish. Any good debater knows not to do this (even though George W. does all the time).

There is a WORLD of difference between fantasy and reality. People like you think pedophiles and anyone even slightly like them are somehow a different species, that we're all bad and we all have sexual feelings for real children. WRONG. Just because I like to imagine that I'm a fox cub (or whatever) does not make me a bad person. I believe people should be able to think any damn thing they want and not fear punishment for it, so long as they aren't cramming it down anyone else's throats. As I said; I am fully _for_ prosecuting those people who DO harm children for real.

My advice to you is to grow up and stop being disgusted by things that aren't real. It wastes time and energy. There are PLENTY of REAL things going on in the world to be disgusted about. You don't like cub art? Fine. Don't look at it. I don't like pictures of really, really fat furries. Do I get all huffy and write bad things about them? No, because that's not how I'd like to be treated myself. Doesn't it stike you at ALL as ironic that you hate me for liking cub stuff, when probably most people would hate you simply for being a furry!? You just try telling me that YOU don't have ANY fetishes that a mainstream, 'normal' person wouldn't find disgusting. Just as disgusting as you find me.

Instead of hating furry artists, how about we all hate genocide, child abuse, war, anorexia, female circumcision, factory farming, the fur industry, Michael Bay and our President instead?

Note: Your first statement there is a generalization far worse than any I made in my original statement.

1. I don't know about you, but I'm in the category of people who distinguish from fan art (that is furry in nature) to personal furry art, in which one expresses oneself via a fursona. I've yet to see too many pictures of Sonic raping his daughter sort of thing, but I'm sure they're out there. Most people express themselves in furry art with a fursona, your latter comments seem to say you do as well, I might note.

2. I'm sorry, I'll put it this way. Much cub art that I have seen personally, harbours the spirit of someone who seems to like the idea of abusing children sexually, for thier own sexual gratification. I too, come from an abusive childhood and I was raped as a child by some neighbourhood boys. Your thoughts and feelings seem to be merely exploritory or creative and I hold no ill will for you. It's the many, many, many cub artists who are just out to make the hyper-sick stuff that are in it for sexual gratification, who think it's sexy to take from someone who doesn't understand that angers me (right along the same lines of people who think Beastiality is okay). Forgive me if it seemed like I was accusing you - I tried to keep the comments I made from applying to you directly in my post.

3. http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004.....orn040524.html

^ Story I was quoting.

I'll point out that while telling me not to make blanket statements, you shouldn't either. Not everyone in the Church is a pediphile either. Just like every neighbourhood boy isn't one. I was just making a point saying "would you allow someone who you know watches kiddie porn or makes cub art touch your children, or better yet, leave them alone with your children?" I'm assuming that the answer would be no in your case.

I'm not saying that you yourself are a pedo. It's clear, you're not. But the reality is that anyone who falls under the category of "pedophile" has a UNIQUE MENTAL DISORDER.

http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pedophilia.html

That does make them different from me. It's possible, and I will admit to something I read in another journal on this topic, that to some people the occasional hint at pedophila (at least teen sex, not child sex) is erotic because it's naughty or wrong - and it can be fun to roleplay the naughty schoolgirl or the evil priest. But people who are into harming children because they are sexually attracted to and hopelessly unable to control their desires for children need to seek help - and in my opinion, those people are being fed by things like cub porn - especially since this site is FREE, where most places, it isn't.

There is a fair bit of irony in a 'cub' telling an adult fur to grow up. If you can't get past being a 5 year old, why should I have to be actively non-chalant about kids being raped, or the thoughts of it, or drawings of it? I'm not telling you to stop seeking what you're looking for. And I do actively avoid watching people who get WAY too close (or just happily bound over the line) to nasty cub stuff.

But you are basically telling me, and CC that we're not allowed to write about our own dislikes in our own forums. you were the one who came out of the woodwork and told us we were wrong (her first, me second, but it's the same thing - this area was for cub-porn dislikers).

Most people do hate me for being a furry. Oh, trust me, I'm going to an animation school where the words "furry art" are more of a curse word than "anime". But the issue is that just because I'm a fur doesn't mean I have to subdue my personal morals on all topics. Just because some furs are into absolutely EVERYTHING - and will argue the same point as yourself, that all furs, no matter wheather we agree or disagree with their actions need to stick together - doesn't mean I have to be - and that also means that I can be disgusted by things that 'aren't real'. To me, it's not okay to involve minors (especially pre-teens) in sexual matters. It's disgusting in my mind and the minds of many others, whether it's someone's fantasy, or not.

But as for focusing my rage towards real topics, it's there already. And good god, I'm a grumpy enough kitty that I can grump about this too. And to me, since this is close to home, this is an important topic to me. Furrys get a bad enough rap for being sexually open without us getting the label "pedophiles" added to the mix.

>Note: Your first statement there is a generalization far worse than any I made in my original statement.

No. It isn't. First off, it wasn't a generalization because you did indeed use very bad debate tactics in your post. Secondly, it's nowhere near as bad as saying that anyone who's into a certain fetish is 'disgusting'.

>"I'm in the category of people who distinguish from fan art... to personal furry art"

Then you're the first I've met. Near as I've observed, fan art and furry art are two halves of a whole. If nothing else, furry art is 'fan art' of the animal kingdom.

>Much cub art that I have seen personally, harbours the spirit of someone who seems to like the idea of abusing children sexually,

Then that's what _you've_ seen. Not the totality of all cub art. I'll admit there are plenty of cub images so twisted I honestly wonder about the people who drew them. But that's not what _I_ choose to look at. The artists I enjoy draw cute stuff that makes you go 'Awww!', and I'm actively trying, with my art and stories, to further that kind of cub art instead of the mean, rapey shit.

>I was raped as a child by some neighbourhood boys.

I am truly sorry to hear that. I hope they met justice and that you found healing. I mean that honestly.

>Your thoughts and feelings seem to be merely exploritory or creative and I hold no ill will for you. It's the...cub artists who are just out to make the hyper-sick stuff... that angers me

THEN YOU SHOULDA MADE THAT CLEARER IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! This is my whole problem with CyberCat's post; she's so horrified of cub stuff she picks up her stuff and jets. Well exCUSE me for having a fetish you don't like! My post was simply a defense of cub porn; like ANY fetish, it has both creepy artists and good ones. Not All Of It Is Evil.

>http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/05/24/sickkidsnurse_porn040524.html

Fair enough. That's one guy. And no, I wouldn't want my kids near him if I had any. But him looking at photographs of real children is FAR different from me drawing fantasy art. Look at what I said in my first post. I'm against anyone railing against fictional portrayals of bad things, because Fictional Portrayals Don't Cause Crimes. Crimes are only committed by people who are too deranged to care about others' suffering IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

>Not everyone in the Church is a pediphile either.

A JOKE!!!

>I'm not saying that you yourself are a pedo. It's clear, you're not. But the reality is that anyone who falls under the category of "pedophile" has a UNIQUE MENTAL DISORDER.
http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pedophilia.html

I *am* a pedophile. More accurate, I am an anthropedophile, since I only like furry kids. That article is both dubious and full of shit. Not so long ago, you'd find articles just like that saying homosexuality is a mental disorder. Pedophilia is NOT a mental illness. Neither is ANY paraphilia. Merely liking something or finding something sexually attractive is not wrong.

My very strongest point is and always had been this: Thoughts are not evil in and of themselves. Evil is choosing to hurt others to satisfy one's own desires. If some pedophile jerks off every night to drawings or stories of little kids, but he keeps his desires hidden for the sake of those around him, then I don't have a problem with him at all. If, however, he looks at REAL photos or touches REAL children, then THAT is evil. Let him draw whatever he wants, I say. Let him put it on an internet site, I say. It's only if he shows it off on a playground that he needs to be stopped. (Remember, you have to be a member here to see mature or adult images)

>But people who are into harming children because they are sexually attracted to and hopelessly unable to control their desires for children need to seek help.

Indeed they do. I don't buy this bullshit about people not being able to control their desires. I was raised by a sociopath; no exaggeration. I didn't grow up to be a sociopath because I chose not to. I think there's very few people so far gone that they never had a chance to stop themselves from hurting others. Claiming otherwise is nothing but a way to avoid blame.

>...and in my opinion, those people are being fed by things like cub porn.

WRONG. No art has EVER 'made' anyone do anything. If it did, every Playboy subscriber would be a rapist and every heavy metal fan would be a murderer. I wish I could just scream it loud enough for the world to hear: *PEOPLE* ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE THINGS THEY DO, NOT ART!!!

If you don't like cub art, okay. Don't look at it. Say you don't like it in your FA journal. But stop acting as if it's the cause of child abuse and not a peripheral symptom!!

>If you can't get past being a 5 year old...

Who said I was five!? My characters and my alter ego are usually nine-twelveish. Still cute, but old enough to think for themselves.

>But you are basically telling me, and CC that we're not allowed to write about our own dislikes in our own forums.

I never said you weren't allowed. It's a public forum, I saw an opinion I strongly disagreed with, and I posted my own opinion. I don't think anyone who disagrees with me should be silenced. Far from it; I just want my own chance to speak!

>To me, it's not okay to involve minors...in sexual matters.

And it's okay that you think that. All I'm saying is, there are better ways to show that than the clunky way you replied to my post. Your opinions aside, it was poorly argued, and that was what most got my dander up.

>Furrys get a bad enough rap for being sexually open without us getting the label "pedophiles" added to the mix.

And you think banning cub art from one website is going to keep 'normal' people from associating furries with pedophiles!? Never gonna happen! They will think the worst of us No Matter What We Do. You want furries to have a better image? Tell all your art school buddies you're a fur, be openly proud of it, and show 'em the best artwork you've done. Confront them with the fact that you're real and not some vague internet stereotype. Do this without acting self-important and you may even get a positive response.

The reason I got pissed at CyberCat's post is that I thought her priorities were wrong. I understood her feelings, but I thought her way of showing them was petty. Similarly, I understand and empathize with your desire not to look at cub porn. But on an internet where people are dicks and will post the worst shit they can imagine (often on purpose just to goose those who are easily offended) all you can do about it is hit the back button and shrug it off. Some things are never going away. NEVER. I don't like a lot of Japanese Guro pics, but there's nothing I could ever do to stop people from posting that stuff. You can either yell about internet stuff and try futilely to change it, or you can ignore it, concentrate on the real, and live your life stress-free.

Hey Cybercat - I hope this is the last message you get. I support you and your decision, and I may join you in leaving this place. I'm horrified to see that this place has allowed this crap to exist happily on it's servers and I'm upset that the owners don't get that this is disgusting and no good can come of it. Either way, I wish you the best in your future endevours. Laters! ~Lynx

Hate to bother you again, Sliver darling, but I took a look at your userpage and look what I found in your favorites!! http://www.furaffinity.net/view/82107/

Why, it's an image of Sora from Kingdom Hearts having rough sex with Kiara!! Aren't they BOTH underage!? For shame! For shame!

And, say! Here's a pic of Babs Bunny having sex with a bunch of her siblings! http://www.furaffinity.net/view/109211/

CUB INCEST!!! *gasp* I am shocked! Don't you know that this is disgusting and no good can come of it? Don't you know that looking at images like this makes you a bad bad child raper?!?

I guess you're only horrified and disgusted by cub porn when you're NOT masturbating to it!

Imma go giggle for about seventy years now. Tee hee.

Hey, the image I faved there was amusing, not arousing. Mostly because it was OMG, highly inappropriate. Neither character is prepubesent. Both characters are well drawn. And it's fanart, not normal furry art - I don't protest teens who are sexually active from having sex. I protest (and yeah, you can look in any of my commments so far and find this streak of truth) against things that are NOT sexually mature from having sex. People used to get married at Sora's age (14). And the way Kiara acts I would say she's of a similar age. A young teen. They're not 5 year olds. Like you. I betcha, if I looked, I'd find a fat fur or two in your favs. OMG, I guess that means you jerk off to them.

Get over yourself.

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/318963/

^ Yeah, you hate fat furs and inflation so much you draw it.

Bah, agrue with a child, agrue like a child.

We were going somewhere, but I suppose it would be asking too much for you to respond to my original comment?

Oh...and you're not a cub artist, BTW. You just like Rescue Rangers way more than the average person. I've yet to see a child being taken advantage of in any of your images. If you think of yourself AS a cub, that's another matter, and I have no issue with it.

>Hey, the image I faved there was amusing, not arousing... Neither character is prepubesent. Both characters are well drawn. And it's fanart, not normal furry art... People used to get married at Sora's age (14). And the way Kiara acts I would say she's of a similar age. A young teen.

All of those things are excuses that wouldn't fly in a courtroom if you were on trail for posession of child pornography. If they're under eighteen, it's pedophilia (as described in that link you sent me, ironically enough). Also, the other fave I mentioned (and you didn't) had a mass of underage bunnies having sex with each other. I'm sorry, but that's cub porn. That's how anybody else would see it, and that's how I see it. And if the police saw it, they wouldn't care that you only find it 'amusing'. If you are going to say that cub porn is disgusting, then either be more specific or don't say anything at all.

>They're not 5 year olds. Like you.

I'm Not Five!!!

>I betcha, if I looked, I'd find a fat fur or two in your favs.

You looked, didn't you? Sorry to disappoint you.

~~~

>^ Yeah, you hate fat furs and inflation so much you draw it.

I never, *ever* said I hate inflation. I never said I hate ANY fetish, because I don't. I'm simply not aroused by furs who are obese to the point of immobility. Not aroused; that's it. I'd never dream of condemning anyone who is, because I wouldn't want them to condemn me for liking, say, inflation. Stop trying to find hypocrisy in my posts. If any's there, I'll admit to it because that's something I do hate. Don't try to manufacture it though.

>Bah, agrue with a child, agrue like a child.

I don't know how to 'agrue'. (Cheap shot. Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

>We were going somewhere, but I suppose it would be asking too much for you to respond to my original comment?

Already did.

>Oh...and you're not a cub artist, BTW. You just like Rescue Rangers way more than the average person. I've yet to see a child being taken advantage of in any of your images. If you think of yourself AS a cub, that's another matter, and I have no issue with it.

WTF!? Did you notice at all there's an image of a little bat boy I drew on my user page as my featured submission? Did you notice many, many pictures of cub characters in my gallery? Not a cub artist!? Are you on the same internet as me!?

And the reason you didn't see any images of cubs being taken advantage of is because I would never draw that. I have drawn a lot more cub pics, I have drawn pics of cubs and adults engaged in sexual behavior. I just chose not to post it here. Why? Because this is an open community and I thought most people wouldn't like to see it! IRONY!!! You don't wanna see cub porn, and I actually didn't post any of mine because I respected the desires of you and people like you!!

Imma go laugh until I throw up a little bit in my mouth.

After reading both your comments, I'll just sum up instead of getting stressed out and bitter at someone over the internet.

You're right. I'm a giant hypocrite. I think that fanart of the Lion King in which two physically mature (but obviously younger than legal age) characters getting it on is funny. I'd add, not arousing, but to me, since it's a bash on Disney, it's funny.

I'm just not someone who draws cubs being raped by adults. Kiara + simba = no good (and no it's not just the incest thing, it's the age difference + maturity). Wouldn't find that funny. I would find that angering and disgusting.

Because adults and children shouldn't have sex together.

And people who do think that crap is okay, including you, disgust me.

Yep. That's an emotional statement. It's not a fallicy, though. That's just the truth. I don't have to be tolerant, because it's something I would hope I could help get rid of one day.

Naturally any resource I could point you at in order to prove that someone who jerks off to little kids having sex with adults is not a healthy person, that just happens to be online is "false due to the internet always being wrong". Of course, any book I'd point you at would probably meet similar ridicule, since they're out of date. Even the most recent, well researched and well thought out articles on file in accepted scientific circles would probably be "ill proven", or "not researched by non-biased sources", so to be honest, I can't argue with you using logic.

Naturally if I express emotion then I'm just being emotional, and that's no way to win arguements with someone who is using the third and final form of arguement.

Ethos. Tradition. Law. These are your weapons. But the thing is, you're not as well armed as you would think.

1. Laws change. So do traditions. This time, it's in your favor. Now you can draw all the pervy crap you like and post it however you like. Thing is, if this gets repealed you're fucked. Why? Because UNLIKE me, you actually ARE perving after this sort of relationship. If they make it illegal to draw or look at shit of this nature, you're in trouble.

2. Depending on where you live, what you've confessed on here can get you arrested. Because you've openly admitted to having pedophilia, and finding relationships between children and adults arousing. And considering how people think about furries, you've not got a hope in hell in explaining how innocent your little character really is, especially since you're an adult yourself.

3. Even if no one ever finds this comment and the laws do not change, you will still struggle with your need for child + adult in a sexual relationship until you get help for it. If you aren't seeing a shrink. I would recommend it. Obviously while my abuse has left we very wary about men I don't know who are in close proximity to me, yours has left you with the thought that sex between a child and an adult is okay on some level.

The answer to all this between you and I?

You have your opinion and I have mine. But above and beyond, CCKitty doesn't deserve to be told that since the courts say something's okay that she needs to alter her morals. And to be honest, neither do I.

Now laugh away, laughing fox. I fear for your future.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAA!!!

No, SliverLynx, I fear for _all_ our futures when people as intolerant of thought as you get their way. If our government ever gets to a point where people can be arrested merely for *thinking* about something, without acting on it in any way, then that's kinda the end of democracy, isn't it?

>"If they make it illegal to draw or look at shit of this nature, you're in trouble."

But they haven't, sweetie. And there's a reason for that. Because even when we as a society hate something utterly and completely, we still hold dear to our hearts the ideas behind the First Amendment. That's why we allow Neo Nazi rallies and Klan demonstrations and people like Pat Robertson. If people like you, who want to ban certain art from the internet, had their way, then where do you propose it stop? First we ban cub porn. Then should we ban racist sites too? Sites that show footage of beheadings? Pro-anorexia sites? All sites with 'deviant' fetishes? All sites with furry art? Sites that criticize the government? Sites that use naughty language? How 'bout we just ban the entire internet to be safe? What people like you will never understand is that the harder you come down on any idea, the more the people who believe in it will resist. I say let those repulsive skidmarks at NAMBLA have their meetings. Let them talk and talk and talk. Prosecute them if they ever do anything more than talk, of course, but I support their intellectual freedom because I think we should respect *everyone's*.

Is it the objective truth that children and adults shouldn't have sex? Fair enough. I can't argue with that. However, I can't see anywhere in your post, the part where you acknowledge the SEVERAL times where I've said that any adult who actually has sex with a child for REAL is evil.

You hate me because of what I think. No, wait, that's not even accurate; you hate me for what you *think* I think, even though I've made my real position abundantly clear.

I am not now, nor have I EVER been, sexually aroused by human children. I am only aroused by fantasy situations that could NEVER occur in reality.

I think that adults who have sex with children, or who force children to have sex with each other, or force any kind of sexual behavior on children, are guilty of an obscenity that's debatably worse than murder, and they should be punished severely.

I think the laws against child abuse in this country need to be stronger, but *smarter*; that our society needs to give up on this 'witch hunt' mentality about imaginary pedophiles lurking in every nook and cranny; that we need to do something about media and parenting trends that encourage pedophilia by making sex symbols out of underage girls; and we need to stop giving child molesters short enough prison sentences that let them get out and molest children again.

I also think that everybody, everywhere, should have the right to fantasize about ANYTHING they damn well feel like (so long as they don't act on those fantasies) without 'moral crusaders' demonizing them.

You really are terrible at debate, aren't you? This whole last post of yours has been nothing but an attack on me. I don't think you wrote a word about anything I actually wrote in my last reply. Was it because I so thoroughly and methodically tore your arguments to shreds? Did that make you angry? Gosh, I'm so sorry.

Face it; I won. I took your words apart bit by bit. When you were wrong, I corrected you. When you were right, I admitted it. I gave you suggestions, you ignored them. I tried to structure my whole post as a firm statement of my position, but also an acknowledgement of yours, and an attempt to find some middle ground we could maybe agree on. Ha. I guess that makes me stupid.

Opinions aside though, you acted hypocritically. You called all pedophiles mentally ill and disgusting, and then I find cub porn in your favorites. I pointed this out. Your response was to try and find hypocrisy on my end, and you failed. So I called you on THAT too. You're still being hypocritical. You still haven't acknowledged the fact that the other picture I mentioned that was in your favorites showed six or seven underage characters engaged in sexual activities. I guess you can't explain that one away by saying it's 'funny' or that it's 'Disney-bashing'. So, from this I guess I can infer that, while you think children having sex with adults is disgusting, you're totally okay with children having sex with other children (excuse me, 'young teens')?

What part of 'THAT's PEDOPHILIA TOO!!!' don't you understand?

Go hate pedophiles all you want, Sliver. But if you're true to your definition of it, that means you have to hate everyone on Earth who has ever even considered the idea. That's a lot of people. Possibly including yourself.

>"Even if no one ever finds this comment and the laws do not change, you will still struggle with your need for child + adult in a sexual relationship until you get help for it. If you aren't seeing a shrink. I would recommend it. Obviously while my abuse has left we very wary about men I don't know who are in close proximity to me, yours has left you with the thought that sex between a child and an adult is okay on some level."

You can go straight to hell.

How DARE you even IMPLY that I have a 'need' for a sexual relationship with a child!? In my first post I wrote; "I, personally, would sooner be executed than harm a living child, and I'm fully in favor of brutally punishing anyone selfish, cruel and evil enough that they can't separate their fantasies from reality." Does that sound like I'm okay with child+adult sex?!? I'm not going to struggle with a 'need' I've never had!!!

You're sick. I don't know what happened to your mind, but apparently it's left you with the idea that it's okay to completely misinterpret others' words and ideas, and change them in your head to make them conform to what you already believe. I can't be more clear about what I do and do not think is right and wrong. Post whatever you want to this; I'm not going to reply again. See, I like to *debate*. Meaning I like to civilly argue a point to reach a conclusion. I don't like it when I counter someone's argument and they respond by getting angry and huffy and self-righteous. And I also don't like having people accuse me of something I find unacceptable and immoral. Go make up things about someone else.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAA!!!

No, SliverLynx, I fear for _all_ our futures when people as intolerant of thought as you get their way. If our government ever gets to a point where people can be arrested merely for *thinking* about something, without acting on it in any way, then that's kinda the end of democracy, isn't it?

>"If they make it illegal to draw or look at shit of this nature, you're in trouble."

But they haven't, sweetie. And there's a reason for that. Because even when we as a society hate something utterly and completely, we still hold dear to our hearts the ideas behind the First Amendment. That's why we allow Neo Nazi rallies and Klan demonstrations and people like Pat Robertson. If people like you, who want to ban certain art from the internet, had their way, then where do you propose it stop? First we ban cub porn. Then should we ban racist sites too? Sites that show footage of beheadings? Pro-anorexia sites? All sites with 'deviant' fetishes? All sites with furry art? Sites that criticize the government? Sites that use naughty language? How 'bout we just ban the entire internet to be safe? What people like you will never understand is that the harder you come down on any idea, the more the people who believe in it will resist. I say let those repulsive skidmarks at NAMBLA have their meetings. Let them talk and talk and talk. Prosecute them if they ever do anything more than talk, of course, but I support their intellectual freedom because I think we should respect *everyone's*.

Is it the objective truth that children and adults shouldn't have sex? Fair enough. I can't argue with that. However, I can't see anywhere in your post, the part where you acknowledge the SEVERAL times where I've said that any adult who actually has sex with a child for REAL is evil.

You hate me because of what I think. No, wait, that's not even accurate; you hate me for what you *think* I think, even though I've made my real position abundantly clear.

I am not now, nor have I EVER been, sexually aroused by human children. I am only aroused by fantasy situations that could NEVER occur in reality.

I think that adults who have sex with children, or who force children to have sex with each other, or force any kind of sexual behavior on children, are guilty of an obscenity that's debatably worse than murder, and they should be punished severely.

I think the laws against child abuse in this country need to be stronger, but *smarter*; that our society needs to give up on this 'witch hunt' mentality about imaginary pedophiles lurking in every nook and cranny; that we need to do something about media and parenting trends that encourage pedophilia by making sex symbols out of underage girls; and we need to stop giving child molesters short enough prison sentences that let them get out and molest children again.

I also think that everybody, everywhere, should have the right to fantasize about ANYTHING they damn well feel like (so long as they don't act on those fantasies) without 'moral crusaders' demonizing them.

You really are terrible at debate, aren't you? This whole last post of yours has been nothing but an attack on me. I don't think you wrote a word about anything I actually wrote in my last reply. Was it because I so thoroughly and methodically tore your arguments to shreds? Did that make you angry? Gosh, I'm so sorry.

Face it; I won. I took your words apart bit by bit. When you were wrong, I corrected you. When you were right, I admitted it. I gave you suggestions, you ignored them. I tried to structure my whole post as a firm statement of my position, but also an acknowledgement of yours, and an attempt to find some middle ground we could maybe agree on. Ha. I guess that makes me stupid.

Opinions aside though, you acted hypocritically. You called all pedophiles mentally ill and disgusting, and then I find cub porn in your favorites. I pointed this out. Your response was to try and find hypocrisy on my end, and you failed. So I called you on THAT too. You're still being hypocritical. You still haven't acknowledged the fact that the other picture I mentioned that was in your favorites showed six or seven underage characters engaged in sexual activities. I guess you can't explain that one away by saying it's 'funny' or that it's 'Disney-bashing'. So, from this I guess I can infer that, while you think children having sex with adults is disgusting, you're totally okay with children having sex with other children (excuse me, 'young teens')?

What part of 'THAT's PEDOPHILIA TOO!!!' don't you understand?

Go hate pedophiles all you want, Sliver. But if you're true to your definition of it, that means you have to hate everyone on Earth who has ever even considered the idea. That's a lot of people. Possibly including yourself.

>"Even if no one ever finds this comment and the laws do not change, you will still struggle with your need for child + adult in a sexual relationship until you get help for it. If you aren't seeing a shrink. I would recommend it. Obviously while my abuse has left we very wary about men I don't know who are in close proximity to me, yours has left you with the thought that sex between a child and an adult is okay on some level."

You can go straight to hell.

How DARE you even IMPLY that I have a 'need' for a sexual relationship with a child!? In my first post I wrote; "I, personally, would sooner be executed than harm a living child, and I'm fully in favor of brutally punishing anyone selfish, cruel and evil enough that they can't separate their fantasies from reality." Does that sound like I'm okay with child+adult sex?!? I'm not going to struggle with a 'need' I've never had!!!

You're sick. I don't know what happened to your mind, but apparently it's left you with the idea that it's okay to completely misinterpret others' words and ideas, and change them in your head to make them conform to what you already believe. I can't be more clear about what I do and do not think is right and wrong. Post whatever you want to this; I'm not going to reply again. See, I like to *debate*. Meaning I like to civilly argue a point to reach a conclusion. I don't like it when I counter someone's argument and they respond by getting angry and huffy and self-righteous. And I also don't like having people accuse me of something I find unacceptable and immoral. Go make up things about someone else.

Dammit. Sorry about the double post.

I'm posting in an epic drama thread, look at me go! Woo.

You know, I've seen a couple of these sbmissions in people stagnant galleries and I assume I missed the drama bus when this was being disputed, but I can't help but really be confused by the whole thing.

This site allows a plethora of erotic and fetish art to satisfy all manner of deviant sexual preferences. You name it-If you can think of some living thing you can splice and give a more or less humanesque appearance that has an orifice, a furry will be right there to fill it. Yet we're all up in arms over people drawing baby animals? Why're we splitting hairs? Not to knock the entire community, but this is a site where the majority of the art is essentialy some really crazy sex act with some manner of animal species. What does it matter if you top it off with more deviance?

Somebody call the whaaambulance.
Quite the political stance you're taking. I can't believe people are still going on about this.

Get over your goddamned egoistic self and stop bitching. Live and let live, y'dig?

Nobody fuckin' cares about this shit anymore. .-.

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Th.....Exodus_of_2006

I can totally understand your decision to withdraw from this website until pedophiles have gone. it's not your duty to supply art here, like some people are making out.

I withdrew all my art and info as well, when I discovered the depth of the weird messed up shit that was on FA, and I didn't want to be associated with it anymore.

As far as I'm concerned, anything that depicts a child in a sexual situation is pretty damn wrong. I'm glad someone's on the right side!

As of yesterday this picture is Ironic, I love it

It is odd that it's still around.

Hehe, looks I'm not the one to search "cub ban" =D

And look they banned cub porn. I wonder if anyone thought it would bring people back rather than make them leave. A lot of cub artists have left. I hope more good artists come back. Spread the word to your morally minded friends!

I haven't deleted this yet because I plan to alter it shortly to something more appropriate. I've just been realllly busy.

well nice to see at least two standing links from ED. Pretty stupid shit to debate about. All or nothing if you ask me.