If you're good at something, never do it for free ©

Truer words have never been spoken.

https://youtu.be/8t8iDdCl2Kw

I can't help feeling like this is the most pure expression of capitalism. Sadly, people tend to want to apply it to literally everything.

If you see a car crash on the side of the road, and get out to look around, and find someone who needs CPR, be sureyou get paid before you administer it, or you're selling your skills short.

It honestly disturbs me that it's being applied more and more to an imaginative hobby. I can't help but feel not *everything* needs a price tag assigned to it.

Personally, I find that when a life is on the line, cost can be negotiated afterwards if need be.

Please take a look at the (rather lengthy) reply I made below. I whiffed on what I was trying to say in that first post, and try to expand on it a little there.

Still not sure if I get across what I was really trying to say, but... I tried.

People with emergency training learn their skills to SAVE LIVES. Artists learn their skills because they like art. You won't die if an artist doesn't draw your fursona, Injecting hyperbole into your accusation isn't helping your argument. What most people making this argument fail to understand is that artists often do donate their skills or just like to do really cool stuff without the expectation of a paycheck. They just do it on their own terms and with people and things close to their heart. Not simply any time someone asks (or demands) they do it.

If you had random people jumping down your neck every day for free shit, you would probably decline, and maybe even get angry and frustrated about it.

I feel like you misunderstood me a bit, and yeah, my example wasn't the best.

I'm not suggesting people NEED art done. What I'm saying is more along the lines of 'people want money for literally everything these days'. It doesn't matter if it's a hobby or an important lifesaving procedure; people want to get paid for everything, from the least to most important, and often in full before they do anything at all. And for something that was in the past so very commonplace to see drawn purely because it was fun, to see it fading more and more into a situation where the same artists are being forced to depend on it as a primary source of income is disturbing and saddening.

The medical concept is referring to the many cases of medical treatment being denied over the hopsitals or other organizations involved wanting to be paid first, BEFORE treatment is given. One recent story I read involved a woman being put out in a hospital gown and nothing else, in freezing temps, clearly under the influence of medications that left her confused and unable to care for herself, and literally no one from the hospital caring or being willing to let the woman back inside or do anything to help her from the point of them dumping her outside.

I admit that my comparison was a bad one though. It just relates to how I feel that the desire to get paid is slowly overriding everything else; how people who joined the fandom and began drawing out of pleasure are now forced to treat their hobby as one of, or their only, source of income based on the times we live in, and how I find that disheartening.

As for people being asked for 'free shit' all the time, that's gonna happen no matter the artist's popularity. If you're drawing art someone wants, and some of those people don't have money, then you're gonna get some people asking for handouts. As for me, if I had the time and the ability, I'd give oout free sketches once in a while. I'm running a business; samples draw more customers. One sample per person selected though! An example is I and others suggested to  evilartnazi that he do some sketches here simply because it would draw in more customers to his site, and it seems to be working. He's been doing a lot more sketches here, and he seems ok with it, and it seems to be drawing him in more business.

i can understand you.

Money should be destroyed !

Humans can work without need in money.

Niggas gotta eat yo 8U

people want art is a pure luxury at the end of the day init

Please look at my statement above. I didn't type things the way I was thinking, and made an attempt to clarify what I meant some.

I'm not against people getting paid for their work, I'll say that straight out though.

I mean i can see where people are coming from. when people charge about 3k for a ych.

Your comparison isnt a very good one as needing your life saved is well, a NEEDED thing to live. While art is pure luxury and you dont NEED it.
If you want it, and the specific person you want it from is charging money, you pay or go find someone thats doing it for free. If the person thats doing it free doesnt have the style/skill you like, then theres another reason why that artist charges for their work.

Yeah my comparison was bad. xP I made an attempt to clarify waht I was trying to say above, so please take a look.

As for your concept, that's just supply and demand. I understand this, but I feel that things have shifted in a not so great way from how they were to a situation where people want to be paid for literally everything... and seem to NEED to ask for money for everything just to survive. That, more than anything else is what bothers me.

Well, an artist living from pay to pay or not really shouldnt mean they deserve to be paid for their work or not. Its the same as any other job. If some factory worker is living paycheck to paycheck, they still deserve to get paid. Hell, if anyone that has worked years to hone a skill, wants to turn that skill into a job, they deserve to do so. If they make money, then cool, people want their work. If they dont, then they dont.
This piece posted above is showing an artist that is clearly making money, with people obviously wanting their work. No artist has to do their art for free. Its very rude and ridiculous to expect them to do so. There are plenty others that will do it for free, so bitching at an artist for not doing it free for you, is just silly. No way around that fact. Go to one that will do it for free, and if you dont want that free artists art, then you either dont get to have any or you need to pay what the artist is asking if you want their work specifically. Its business and you can turn anything into business. Thats just how it works in general. If people want it, and are up for paying for it, then that person providing has every right to make that money and to turn down doing free work.
Anyone that is upset about that fact just looks like someone thats simply pissy that they cannot afford that work or dont want to pay.

One thing im keen on saying, if I cannot afford something, is that its too expensive for ME. I do not insult the person/company providing the item I cannot afford, and I dont say its not worth it because if someone else is paying for it, then it is clearly worth that amount.

Also, key word on the last bit of what you said is SEEM. You have no idea if they need to ask for money for everything just to survive. They may also have a normal job as well as selling art. You also dont know if maybe some emergency came up and they do need that extra cash, which happens to many people. Not just artists. It doesnt matter and is none of your business. It doesnt affect you, other than you possibly not getting free art, which is again, silly to be angry over and try and make it your business. Its not.
Plain and simple.

I feel like you missed my point here again. ^^;

I'm not saying people who do art need to give it out for free. I'm not saying there might not be reasons for charging for their art, and I'm not saying there's any problem at all with people charging for art.

Basically, I'm saying that over time, art which was being drawn for free as a hobby has evolved into a business where people draw increasingly exclusively for profit, and that I find that fact to be disturbing, mainly because it seems like it's become a necessity to so many people.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

It's sarcasm, fortunately.

Poe’s fukkin law, amirite?

Classic

Don't forget that they charge an incredible amount of money, are ALWAYS busy drawing, and somehow are always completely out of money to do anything else.

Ah, the expenses of life and paying off massive loans from art schools. Good times.

how dare you have expenses and also charge for a skill that took a lot of time and effort to develop?

you should learn from plumbers, yeah, take commission work for personal plumbing
but you should also just plumb for free in public just to get your image out there.
and if you could also do a free plumb for me because it's my birthday too?

Oh Hammy I love You man!

savage

well, nowadays the average cost of living is 1500+ a month. And they have to maintain computers, tablets, ETC to keep their income from art...

I live in a studio apartment that costs me $700/mon, I have a $45/mon internet bill, $115/mon phone bill, $40-50/mon electric bill, and that's before transportation and food costs are factored in. Unfortunately, some artists, either through bad luck or a bad market, have to take up a full time job to make up the difference... and I'm one of them :/

Well not to discredit those who have the education for it, but people who spend their days just drawing and relying on their art as a source of income tend to up their prices because their talents tend to run short after a while. Only a few people can make a potentially rewarding life out of their art, but to only rely on it is akin to a form of fix. And most of the artists I know who only draw for a living, have a hard time, and/or really don't put their money to good use, so they're always on the short.

So to think that all the artists who charge a ton of money would sit in front of a hoard of gold like on that pic is satirizing them, since most of those artists just take that money for granted. But, not all of them. I've seen some artists who were very honest with that, but I've also met short-ended ones who literally ask me if I want to commission them because they're 'out of smokes' and the likes... and it kills me to see decent artists vanish because it's not working their way like that.

Also, 1500+ a MONTH? I don't know what kind of gold castles you folks in the US live in, but here in Canada I spend $400 a MONTH for a small one-room apartment. It's ideal for an artist, as a matter of fact. And CAD $400 is roughly USD $325. I think people are just looking in the wrong places. Or at least, I hope.

Same for me in Germany. I worked for some time as Graphicdesigner, and I am always a bit puzzled by the prices. Particularly as the artists here, are Illustrators. Are the cost of living in other nations really so insane?

I live in Canada and my expenses are at least $1500 USD a month. This is for a two bedroom, split with another person, and would include all of our bills, but, yeah. Sounds like you're in a cheap part of the country.

i'm sorry, What? How the hell did you swing that? The cheapest place I could find around here was MINIMUM 600 a month with nothing included... add into that food, a car, internet, cable/satellite, power... It pushes nearly 1300. The 200 is random shit you want, impulse buys

> here in Canada I spend $400 a MONTH for a small one-room apartment.

Where the fuck, please? So I can move there?

I live in BC and can't really find a place under $1000. I'm not even looking at fancy places, either. One bedroom converted garage from the 80s, $900.

I haven't paid rent that cheap since I lived with 5 other people.

It's a very small bachelor room, and I've lived in the house and worked with the landlord for a very long time, and I still live there since he passed away, and his daughter and brother agreed not to touch my rent and arrangements. It does sound like a godly deal, that with only $400 with free wi-fi and no electricity bill, but once you consider I live in poverty and welfare hardly pays for half the month in food, it's almost a boon that I live here, not luxury.

You are living in Special Circumstances which cannot compare to most people's expenses.

The idea being, just because you have a way to obtain some form of income doesn't mean you are forced to go live in the richest, most expensive of places just to reflect on your income. Because look at this.

To compare, my father's side of my family has always been obsessed with 'being rich' for some reason. They lived in a shit apartment, my stepmother's a neat freak who spent her whole weekend mopping the floor, vacuuming, laundrying, dishwashing, then smoking. Then did it again, every day. On the other side, my father had a poor job since he was a high school dropout because of an accident, has been living with this bitch girlfriend ever since he broke out from his mom and realized all his abused exes were gonna turn on him, so he went silent.

Comes the day where finally my stepmother finally starts working, a cheap, lame government job, and now she keeps telling people they're rich! They're not rich, they just buy super-expensive silverware, large antique-style knick-knacks and decorations, and really make their house look like it belongs in a mansion. their tiny, cheap-ass apartment.

While they will mostly save every single penny they can through heavy recycling and refunding (As well as I kid you not, picking up and keeping every receipts they happen to stumble upon outside) and to everything to save a bit of money, like eating cheap and poorly, yet, they keep calling themselves wealthy... But don't ask them for money, they'll immediately show you off and ask you to work for it.

I guess my point is, don't overdo your own life. Even my brother was obsessed with this 'becoming rich' scheme, and went to college to study programming, made a couple loans to get his diploma, then worked retail to pay it off. Ironically, his position in the company he works at is so high, he makes more money than someone who's job is what he studied in would make, so why bother changing. At least my brother can be generous, although it's thanks to his girlfriend asking him to be nice once in a while, haha.

Yeah, I live in poverty, I scrape for food and I definitely don't have any form of wealth, my computer's garbage, and my internet's cheap and shared with other people. Not everyone can afford a good life, and sometimes just stepping out of one's boundaries is a world of an improvement to giving yourself good publicity.

Clearly you're not in Toronto or Vancouver.

Average rent is $2000 in TO. All the artists I know there aren't working as artists. They're working tech jobs, at Ikea, on Disability, etc. Art is the side-gig, at best.

They'd probably just go blow it all on food and shelter.

this was fun to see years ago

It's not that they demand money for commissions, it's how much they demand and how things have swung into a venue of furry art in general being mostly posted up behind paywalls of one sort or another.

Of course if you're asking for something personal, you're gonna be expected to pay for it. But back when I started in the fandom, people were drawing a lot more purely for the fun of it, or to attract potential customers, or to improve their skills and then posting it here and in other sites. Now, although a some artists do still just post stuff, there's a lot more of pay streaming, YCHs, adoptables and other gimmicks that try to get people to pay for anything and everything artist produces, from a basic sketch to a fully realized piece of art.

Is it endangering the fandom? Probably not. But it can and does make it feel like if you don't have money to spare, you're going to be extremely limited in what you can see from your favorite artists, which can make some people feel oddly oppressed by the trend.

And before anyone reading this goes there, I've done dozens of paid commissions in the past, so I'm not just talking from the perspective of someone who doesn't want to support the artists here. Im just offering my thoughts on the matter.

I'm okay with artists trying to live off their work and of course they're going to favour the option that earns them a living over just do it for nothing.

I also figure, having a paywall isn't really that big of a deal, I buy comics even if they're not about me.

As I said, I'm not against artists making money off their work either. But as I mentioned, things have gotten sort of funneled into a place where artists don't seem willing to draw for the fun of it anymore, or very rarely. This, to people who have been in the fandom since drawing for fun was a normal thing can lead to people thinking artists are being 'greedy' for wanting to be paid for everything they do, from a sketch on up to a full comic or personal art.

It's unfair of people to expect they can request free personal art though, or to think they shouldn't be turned down for it. Even the fully complete art that is put out should have the ability for the artist to request money for it, and no one should complain, anymore than they can complain about going out to buy a Marvel or DC comic.

I'm of two minds.

On one hand, I don't have problems with artists trying to make a buck off of their work.

On the other hand, I think there are a LOT (I watch quite a few of them) of furry artists who aren't quite good enough to make this a living rather than a hobby, trying to make a full living off of their art. Sometimes they think they're all that, but sometimes it's just that they can't find another job at the moment, and it's either this or they lose their house/apt/studio/what have you. Either way, it's a lifestyle full of desperation.

True that!

Here is a third one.

Skill does no always make it easier. There are VERY VEEEEEEEEEERRYYY Talented fellas here. who just don't get nearly enough credit (nor money). and there are others Not so skilled. But they sell well. and Others VERY Very well. So I'd say it comes down to Popularity.

It's like in many other areas, where popularity makes a lot of differences. In that sense artists here have the same problem like musicians.

it's probably because they don't draw giant five headed herms that do hard core vore and skat porn :D i have seen that the stranger the stuff you draw even half decently on furry/hentai spaces the more money you can get outa people :U

Shhh!!! Don't tell them the secret dang it!!!!

Agreed. As an artist, you need to be aware of your popularity and skill, and price accordingly, I think. And in some cases, you NEED to put out some free art, if only to show people what you're capable of.

A flip side to this is many of the 'less skilled' artists who want money for their art are emulating the more well known, skilled artists because it feels like a trend. And in some cases, despite not being 'top teir' artists, they get a lot of patronage because they're willing to accept a lot of small, no holds barred commissions and get them done in a reasonable amount of time. By way of comparison, I've been snubbed for commissions by certain 'good' artists just because, and had others take WAY longer than is rational, like my 'At a Loss for Words' commission that took only 14 years to get completed, and not in the way I originally requested it.

"my 'At a Loss for Words' commission"
"took only 14 years to get completed"

I'm at a loss for words myself!

I was up to the point of literally just writing it off, but I had perservered for as long as I could, and it paid off.

I still think of said artist as a sort of distant friend, though we don't speak as muc, each having our own problems in RL.

Oh woah, didn't realize you'd made this!

I think the artist of this is  fenn I was told.

Gotcha, thanks for crediting!

I saw this on Twitter but I'm pretty sure the guy used it unironically

You know what I've heard?... They spend it on two things; That's right, housing and food.
Wait until u18chan gets to hear about this D:<

DUCK THEM ARTISTS! >>>>>>>:::CCCCC

"Hi I'm FoxMcyiffs! I LOOOOVE your smut! can you do my Shark-Bear-wolf-zombie-tecnicolor dragon herm from from the 50's Fucking a Feral Horse with HUGE boobs???? I've chosen you because you Make SUCH GOOD FEEET!!! Oh and make sure His dick is Orange! I love that shite!

....Wha?? why you charge me so much! I only have ten bucks! WHO DOYATHINKYEWARE??? fookin' Artist trying so hard to make a living out of their otherwise useless skills... charging me so much for my pic that only took him
what? fucking nine hours to make in HD."

I meant to reply to this, see my comment below :/

.... if only what you say here was an exaggeration ......

I see my self as an outsider and I've worked as graphic designer with a couple of businesses. Doing anything creative, is sadly a damn fucking hard job and it's not easy to make a living. It always was like that, and it most probably will stay that way for a long time, this is even more of a challange for anyone who's more or less offering just 'art' of any kind like illustrators or free lance artists. It is the reason why I actually quit to work as graphic designer and started to become a child care worker. At least now I do not have to work daily 10-11 hours anymore for a rather mediocre pay and I have a private life again.

However, with saying this I personly feel that comissions in this community have changed over time, technically the artists here are illustrators and it seems one of the most common comissions are Your-Character-Here-Comissions. Now, that is absolutely understandable, as it has a lot of advantages, it offers a form of standardisation for both the client and the artist. It's not all just doom and gloom, I guess part of it is simply due to the fury-fandom maturing, becoming a busisness rather than some obscure hobby.

But I also see the issues here. First prices do have inflated quite a bit, not for everyone and not equally of course, but they have grown. And I find that troublesome when you start to compare artists with each other, and the work they offer. Particularly when the difference in quality isn't staggering or even similar. For example, you can get from some a full comission, with all the freedom and choices in pose, environment, scene and act (sexual, non-sexual etc.), for let us say 200$ and then you have a YCH by a more popular artist where the action starts at 200$, eventually, where the pose, scene, and act is most of the time 'fixed' and the client has literaly no say in the outcome.

So you're paying more to gain less, and what disturbs me a little is when you speak out against it, you're swarmed over by a large number of hostile comments like as you just suggested the artists should all starve to death and offer their work for free or under the minimum wage or something. I feel this is dishonest and it also doesn't represent the reality of how dificult creative work actually is.

It sadly has become a very difficult topic though, a minefield of sorts with a lot of toxic arguments from both sides, albeit I feel it is a bit worse due to fanboy- and herd-mentality, where people are a bit quick in jumping to conclussions like as everyone who's voicing criticism is just looking for free art and starving artists.

Its a conversation i still wanna se be more open, as more its talked about, more understanding is put into it, as i feel put a lid on things only causes more misinformation and confusion to even slander of greed, dunno feels like many bitchig about it has no understanding of economy, specially when one artists attacks another for being overpriced, best part was the one bitching was dint do good job.

As exploration that will always happen, any market with serous business available will have those taking their craft serious in different prices, and then the scammers with traces steals and such for low prices (yes there is the real scammers hang at) and so on, i been compared to some of those to lower my prices and i keep hearing stories as artists got shafted by these scam jobs and i keep telling em not go for the cheapest artist out there as majority of em is scammers.


Perfect example, se steam store asset flippers, and then you will notice a strong similarity.

A more honest and open discussion would be welcome, but I don't see that happen any time soon. The community just is to toxic in that department, so any rationality and objectivity is kinda discarded. Which is really sad in my opinion, as I don't think it's going to help the artists in the long run, actuatlly it's going to hurt many since the community is really not thar large.

true, i seen the sheer hypocrisy in some complaining that artists that is successful and has patreon and call em paywall when themselves uses it also if not in a more aggressive state

This captures the Onion political cartoon style perfectly.

I get so many of these. May I toss a hint out there?

If a client has ten bucks, you should be able to do something for that ten bucks, even if the drawing is just a sketchy headshot.

It’s ok to micro-transact. If they’re character is crazy, offer to draw something in a genre of something their into. Like say if they’re into preganacy, draw a regular non-crazy character and maker her pregnant. Dedicate the piece to them and make them feel special.

It’s also a good thing to let people know that complexity increases price. Another thing is to design generic characters that aren’t special and can conform to anything. Your fans will like having some choice over one of your characters. Kinda fills that “request” gap.

I do all this and I’m not rich in the least. Miles-DF, Yawg, Zen, and those guys are among the one percenters, you can’t compare yourself to them.

Above all else, treat every client like a friend. It’s better to have fans and a tiny community. When your fans like your stuff, you can do more personal artwork. Also, communicate with them, get a Twitter or something.

*looks at his check list* Yep. got those and a bunch more.

I don't think any of those guys are Rich. They might be better off. and some of them are there because how popular they are. not so much quality wise. I could be wrong that's just subjective chitchat.

I'd say treat people Friendly and professionally. Unless you want a daily flood of Murry Purry comments (not thats a bad thing)

Popularity definitely helps, can’t argue there.

don't you know?

every artist has five lamborghinis in their garage in their vacation house in hawaii

Rule 34 is if it exists, there's porn of it.

Rule 63 is if it exists, it also exists in the opposite gender.

So what is the rule that if it exists, it also exists in furry form?

Incorrect, I have this posted up in my gallery too. And was informed  CaptainCoyote is to blame for this originally.

Thank you for the info! Updating it! :)

Yer welcome. It's *finger guns* pretty good.

think i saw someone on twitter repost this once but they treated it completely seriously

SEIZE THE MEANS OF ILLUSTRATION! “Soiuz nerushimyj respublik svobodnykh Splotila naveki Velikaia Rus. Da zdravstvuet sozdannyj volej narodov.....”

nice marxism reference ewe

Someone needs to make an "Honest Furries" shirt in honer of this masterpiece.

Hah! That is a great idea!

there is a third angle to art, besides economics and ego, and that is communication.

and there is also this concept called 'hobby', which means something you do because you enjoy doing it, INSTEAD of doing it to survive.

this isn't to bash those who sustain themselves doing something they enjoy,

but

making everything have to be about little green pieces of paper,

IS NOT a default condition of the universe.

(which has absolutely no problem with humans, their perspectives, demands nor expectations, not being the center of it).

i know for some people 'business' is life.

for me, i can't even begin to relate to that perspective.

humans, and everything else that breathes air, can live longer without trading symbols of value,
then we can, without air itself, which comes from the green parts of vegetation,
itself able to exist, by a kind of economics of nature, that has nothing to do with symbolic values.
only real ones.

Hey! I can't believe this is still doing the rounds!

Enjoy <3

well that was a cringey comment thread

Haha! I love reading it now and then! :D

I called it before I scrolled down but I wasn't expecting THAT much :||