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And my little girl casts a very happy smile toward her Mommy as she gives her big Rat Daddy a hug!
I so need to do something about those floppy ears.
Dominus tecum
I so need to do something about those floppy ears.
Dominus tecum
Category Photography / Fursuit
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OK....I'm going to ASSUME you didn't mean that to be as condescending as it came off.
Gay guys can and often do adopt children just like you did, but you knew that right?
Fact of the matter is a large number of people (gay straight, WHATEVER) don't have kids because they don't have that desire.
So yes they won't know your joy, but guess what...you won't know my joy either. Thrill seeking, power sports, and combat sports are what works for me. I'm well aware that those things don't work for everyone and I understand why some people think I'm crazy for enjoying them.
But by the same token I would not get the same satisfaction from being a family man that you do.
Different strokes...for different folks *cut to Sly and the family Stone*
Gay guys can and often do adopt children just like you did, but you knew that right?
Fact of the matter is a large number of people (gay straight, WHATEVER) don't have kids because they don't have that desire.
So yes they won't know your joy, but guess what...you won't know my joy either. Thrill seeking, power sports, and combat sports are what works for me. I'm well aware that those things don't work for everyone and I understand why some people think I'm crazy for enjoying them.
But by the same token I would not get the same satisfaction from being a family man that you do.
Different strokes...for different folks *cut to Sly and the family Stone*
No, it wasn't meant to be condescending. Just a statement of fact. You chose to pursue the life you want to have. And I note with some regret that for most of the fandom there is a distinct lack of interest in having kids. People honestly don't really know what they are missing.
I have experienced the thrills that come from extreme activities; ask me about the Miracle Mile sometime. It can be amazing, energizing, and truly makes me feel alive. But it isn't even close to the same as the joy I feel when my little girl smiles at me, or the wonder of the responsibility it is to be her father. It is not a matter of moments but something that will be with me over years, decades even. So, no offense Tip, but fatherhood is in a whole different class than what you are talking about.
We are different sorts of rats, Tip, no question there. But what I'm talking about is far deeper than that. I was ready to surrender and accept the sorrow that comes to married couples who are childless and trust that thee was something greater in mind when the joyful and frightening news came that we had been placed for adoption. The gamut of emotions we went through in so short a time is impossible to describe.
And the foot of that mountain you glimpsed here, Tip. Savor it, ponder it, or if you must, hate it, but please do not dismiss it with a "different strokes" cliche.
Dominus tecum
I have experienced the thrills that come from extreme activities; ask me about the Miracle Mile sometime. It can be amazing, energizing, and truly makes me feel alive. But it isn't even close to the same as the joy I feel when my little girl smiles at me, or the wonder of the responsibility it is to be her father. It is not a matter of moments but something that will be with me over years, decades even. So, no offense Tip, but fatherhood is in a whole different class than what you are talking about.
We are different sorts of rats, Tip, no question there. But what I'm talking about is far deeper than that. I was ready to surrender and accept the sorrow that comes to married couples who are childless and trust that thee was something greater in mind when the joyful and frightening news came that we had been placed for adoption. The gamut of emotions we went through in so short a time is impossible to describe.
And the foot of that mountain you glimpsed here, Tip. Savor it, ponder it, or if you must, hate it, but please do not dismiss it with a "different strokes" cliche.
Dominus tecum
If fatherhood works for you then great, run with it, enjoy it, love that little girl with all your heart. I won't deny or dismiss your life choice, nor will I belittle it, hate it, etc..
But I do ask that you do the same for me.
I started off this thread by poking fun at myself and telling you how cute you look with your daughter. YOU were the one that felt the need to tell me that I, "won't know your joy" and go down the path of I'm better then you because I have a daughter. You spent most of this last post telling me that YOUR life choice was "deeper".. "in a different class".. and that what I do with my life "does not even come close to" what you are doing with yours. You also pontificated that all childless couples are somehow resigned to sorrow.
THAT is being dismissive, ignorant, and arrogant.
But I do ask that you do the same for me.
I started off this thread by poking fun at myself and telling you how cute you look with your daughter. YOU were the one that felt the need to tell me that I, "won't know your joy" and go down the path of I'm better then you because I have a daughter. You spent most of this last post telling me that YOUR life choice was "deeper".. "in a different class".. and that what I do with my life "does not even come close to" what you are doing with yours. You also pontificated that all childless couples are somehow resigned to sorrow.
THAT is being dismissive, ignorant, and arrogant.
You also started going off on how there were more of you than me and always would be. To be honest, I think it is because most folks in the fandom don't understand what being a father really means. That's what I was getting at. You then told me that being a father is nothing more significant than being a thrill seeker. I think that proves my point because there is a heck of a lot more to being a father.
And most childless couples do feel sorrow at being childless. Not all of course. But those who try to have children for a decade or more with no success certainly feel a good bit of sorrow about it even if they never talk about it.
I may not know all there is to the choices you've made in your life, and I certainly don't believe I have always made the right ones. But I do know that I am profoundly grateful for my little girl in a way I could never be grateful for a hobby, a career, or anything else. But ultimately, what is wrong is that you are saying all that matters is whether fatherhood works for "me". That's what I mean by "deeper" and the like. It isn't about me! I cannot, by myself, be a father. I can only be a father in relation to another. A being a father involves a great deal of responsibility. But it also involves the giving and receiving of love with that child, a love whose interest is for the child's benefit and not for my own.
That's what I've been trying, in my inartful way, to get across. Do I dismiss your life choices? No. But they are about you. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that and we all make tons of such choices. Being a father has been about my family, not just me. That is why I do not believe it is fair to compare them.
I am not trying to be dismissive, ignorant, or arrogant in anything I am saying. But you are coming across as suggesting that my little girl, my love for her and hers for me, is of no more significance than one of your race cars. And that is deeply offensive if true, and I cannot for a moment believe that you really think that.
Dominus tecum
And most childless couples do feel sorrow at being childless. Not all of course. But those who try to have children for a decade or more with no success certainly feel a good bit of sorrow about it even if they never talk about it.
I may not know all there is to the choices you've made in your life, and I certainly don't believe I have always made the right ones. But I do know that I am profoundly grateful for my little girl in a way I could never be grateful for a hobby, a career, or anything else. But ultimately, what is wrong is that you are saying all that matters is whether fatherhood works for "me". That's what I mean by "deeper" and the like. It isn't about me! I cannot, by myself, be a father. I can only be a father in relation to another. A being a father involves a great deal of responsibility. But it also involves the giving and receiving of love with that child, a love whose interest is for the child's benefit and not for my own.
That's what I've been trying, in my inartful way, to get across. Do I dismiss your life choices? No. But they are about you. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that and we all make tons of such choices. Being a father has been about my family, not just me. That is why I do not believe it is fair to compare them.
I am not trying to be dismissive, ignorant, or arrogant in anything I am saying. But you are coming across as suggesting that my little girl, my love for her and hers for me, is of no more significance than one of your race cars. And that is deeply offensive if true, and I cannot for a moment believe that you really think that.
Dominus tecum
You also started going off on how there were more of you than me and always would be.
No I didn't I said "so many of us are gay" you then went to natural selection and I pointed out (correctly) that there will likely be an increase in the gay population (in humans) for a few more years at least.
You then told me that being a father is nothing more significant than being a thrill seeker.
No I didn't. You said that I would not "know your joy" and I pointed out that you won't know mine. I used thrill seeking as an example simply because that is a well known fact of me...the race suit is real yaknow!
And most childless couples do feel sorrow at being childless.
Do you have any stats to back that claim up?? All the childless couples I know are very happy and all but one of them planned from the get go to not have children. I'm not even including the same sex couples I know in this statement, most of the ones I know have (IRONY!) adopted children.
But ultimately, what is wrong is that you are saying all that matters is whether fatherhood works for "me".
No I didn't I said "so many of us are gay" you then went to natural selection and I pointed out (correctly) that there will likely be an increase in the gay population (in humans) for a few more years at least.
You then told me that being a father is nothing more significant than being a thrill seeker.
No I didn't. You said that I would not "know your joy" and I pointed out that you won't know mine. I used thrill seeking as an example simply because that is a well known fact of me...the race suit is real yaknow!
And most childless couples do feel sorrow at being childless.
Do you have any stats to back that claim up?? All the childless couples I know are very happy and all but one of them planned from the get go to not have children. I'm not even including the same sex couples I know in this statement, most of the ones I know have (IRONY!) adopted children.
But ultimately, what is wrong is that you are saying all that matters is whether fatherhood works for "me".
I think you cut your post off.
I know your race suit is real (and very cool). But the impression of your posts is that you were equating the two. I'm glad to hear that you are not.
I have experience to back it up, both my own, and those who work in the adoption field. Read any book on adoption and the sadness and loss that comes with not having children is one of the first things they address when they speak of the parents. Couples who decided from the get go not to have children are not going to feel this, although later in life they may, may, look back on this with regret and feel it then.
That said, we, in our real life, move in different circles. Almost every couple I know has children of their own, or managed to adopt, or are trying to adopt. I only know a handful who decided not to have children (I can count them with one hand).
Dominus tecum
I know your race suit is real (and very cool). But the impression of your posts is that you were equating the two. I'm glad to hear that you are not.
I have experience to back it up, both my own, and those who work in the adoption field. Read any book on adoption and the sadness and loss that comes with not having children is one of the first things they address when they speak of the parents. Couples who decided from the get go not to have children are not going to feel this, although later in life they may, may, look back on this with regret and feel it then.
That said, we, in our real life, move in different circles. Almost every couple I know has children of their own, or managed to adopt, or are trying to adopt. I only know a handful who decided not to have children (I can count them with one hand).
Dominus tecum
I think you cut your post off.
Basically, I'm only tech savvy with cars...and I wanted to pick my words right.
I know your race suit is real (and very cool). But the impression of your posts is that you were equating the two. I'm glad to hear that you are not.
I KINDA...am...like I said before you won't know my joy, I won't know yours. Joy, happiness, etc...a round peg does not fit in a square hole.
I have experience to back it up, both my own, and those who work in the adoption field.
Yea...but you see people who come to an adoption agency are pretty much ALWAYS going be feeling sorrow, that's what I asked for STATS not personal experience or books on adoption. You assume that MOST people feel sorrow and stated that couples without children "may" feel regret. I think your your own struggles have tainted your outlook on this. Why do I say this?? Because....
Almost every couple I know has children of their own, or managed to adopt, or are trying to adopt.
Me on the other hand I only know a handful of couples that HAVE children...three of them are gay couples...one of them is lesbian..and the ONLY person I know that was adopted was my mom.
Basically, I'm only tech savvy with cars...and I wanted to pick my words right.
I know your race suit is real (and very cool). But the impression of your posts is that you were equating the two. I'm glad to hear that you are not.
I KINDA...am...like I said before you won't know my joy, I won't know yours. Joy, happiness, etc...a round peg does not fit in a square hole.
I have experience to back it up, both my own, and those who work in the adoption field.
Yea...but you see people who come to an adoption agency are pretty much ALWAYS going be feeling sorrow, that's what I asked for STATS not personal experience or books on adoption. You assume that MOST people feel sorrow and stated that couples without children "may" feel regret. I think your your own struggles have tainted your outlook on this. Why do I say this?? Because....
Almost every couple I know has children of their own, or managed to adopt, or are trying to adopt.
Me on the other hand I only know a handful of couples that HAVE children...three of them are gay couples...one of them is lesbian..and the ONLY person I know that was adopted was my mom.
You also started going off on how there were more of you than me and always would be.
No I didn't I said "so many of us are gay" you then went to natural selection and I pointed out (correctly) that there will likely be an increase in the gay population (in humans) for a few more years at least.
You then told me that being a father is nothing more significant than being a thrill seeker.
No I didn't. You said that I would not "know your joy" and I pointed out that you won't know mine. I used thrill seeking as an example simply because that is a well known fact of me...the race suit is real yaknow!
And most childless couples do feel sorrow at being childless.
Do you have any stats to back that claim up?? All the childless couples I know are very happy and all but one of them planned from the get go to not have children. I'm not even including the same sex couples I know in this statement, most of the long term same sex couples I know have (IRONY!) adopted children.
But ultimately, what is wrong is that you are saying all that matters is whether fatherhood works for "me".
In the terms of joy that you were talking about in your post...yes that is all that matters, and I have wished you and her the best over and over in my replies.
Being a father has been about my family, not just me. That is why I do not believe it is fair to compare them.
Insofar as it being a choice it is certainly apples to apples. I'm not sure why you feel the need to underplay that aspect of it. If YOU had not wanted to have her in YOUR family, would it have happened?? No. So yes it IS about you, your joy, your family, your choice. Not just you as you say..but certainly YOU are a part of it.
But you are coming across as suggesting that my little girl, my love for her and hers for me, is of no more significance than one of your race cars. And that is deeply offensive if true, and I cannot for a moment believe that you really think that.
I would get no joy or happiness from raising a child. Same way you would get no joy from racing a car (I assume!). So you are a family man and I'm a thrill seeker. We both are happy and I'll see you at the next fur con!!
The difference here is that I have never felt the need to say mine way is better, you won't experience my joy, tell you that you don't know what you are missing, my way of life is more significant, or insinuate that your way of life is somehow lesser then mine....or your friends...or anyone else that doesn't have children.
I set the bar as equal and wished you the best as I would anyone in your shoes let alone someone I would like to be friends with.
I'm not sure what else to say, if that idea is offensive to you, then so be I guess.
No I didn't I said "so many of us are gay" you then went to natural selection and I pointed out (correctly) that there will likely be an increase in the gay population (in humans) for a few more years at least.
You then told me that being a father is nothing more significant than being a thrill seeker.
No I didn't. You said that I would not "know your joy" and I pointed out that you won't know mine. I used thrill seeking as an example simply because that is a well known fact of me...the race suit is real yaknow!
And most childless couples do feel sorrow at being childless.
Do you have any stats to back that claim up?? All the childless couples I know are very happy and all but one of them planned from the get go to not have children. I'm not even including the same sex couples I know in this statement, most of the long term same sex couples I know have (IRONY!) adopted children.
But ultimately, what is wrong is that you are saying all that matters is whether fatherhood works for "me".
In the terms of joy that you were talking about in your post...yes that is all that matters, and I have wished you and her the best over and over in my replies.
Being a father has been about my family, not just me. That is why I do not believe it is fair to compare them.
Insofar as it being a choice it is certainly apples to apples. I'm not sure why you feel the need to underplay that aspect of it. If YOU had not wanted to have her in YOUR family, would it have happened?? No. So yes it IS about you, your joy, your family, your choice. Not just you as you say..but certainly YOU are a part of it.
But you are coming across as suggesting that my little girl, my love for her and hers for me, is of no more significance than one of your race cars. And that is deeply offensive if true, and I cannot for a moment believe that you really think that.
I would get no joy or happiness from raising a child. Same way you would get no joy from racing a car (I assume!). So you are a family man and I'm a thrill seeker. We both are happy and I'll see you at the next fur con!!
The difference here is that I have never felt the need to say mine way is better, you won't experience my joy, tell you that you don't know what you are missing, my way of life is more significant, or insinuate that your way of life is somehow lesser then mine....or your friends...or anyone else that doesn't have children.
I set the bar as equal and wished you the best as I would anyone in your shoes let alone someone I would like to be friends with.
I'm not sure what else to say, if that idea is offensive to you, then so be I guess.
I think we have been talking about two different things to be honest, and as usual, when that happens, misunderstanding breeds hurt feelings and the like. Neither of us wants this, both of us would like to be friends with each other, and so I will try to explain myself clearly without (I hope) any loaded words or the kind. I will also, first, say what I think you are trying to say, just so it is clear that I get it.
First off, thank you for the well wishing of my family. I greatly appreciate it and it does mean a great deal to me. I hope that in all of your endeavors you are able to find what you seek and what you need, and that you have a great time doing it!
Now, what I understand you trying to say is that just as you will, by your own choice, never know the joys of fatherhood or family life, I will never know the joys of racing cars, or any of the many things that you do.
This is true in a limited sense. I know what thrill sports are like, so even if I have never been into them as much as you have, I am not wholly inexperienced (no race cars though). Your understanding of fatherhood is for the most part vicarious as you have admitted.
There is nothing wrong with being childless or of not desiring children for yourself. I certainly do not mean to imply that there is! In one sense, saying that it is my choice that made adoption even possible for my family is true. But it also depended on my wife's choice. If she had not desired it as well, then my desire would have remained unfulfilled, or I would have had to convince her. In truth, she loves motherhood and it has been a blessing to her in more ways than she could have guessed. That's part of, a tiny part, what I was trying to get at: this was not my decision, my desire, my choice, my responsibility, my blessing, my joy alone.
Joys shared are always greater joys. It's why we go to conventions, furmeets, and the like, so we can enjoy being furry in the company of our fellow furs. It's why I host Rodent panels at cons so I can get the rodents together and share in our common love. It is why you get together with fellow muscle-furs to work out. I do not imagine that your car racing is something you do alone either. These are all joys we can share with others and do share with others. But the others with whom we share them changes all the time. Some of the furs I was closest to when I got into the fandom (back in the early 90s) I do not often see anymore, or in a few cases, see at all. The folks I go bowling with, or sing in the choir with change from year to year, and sometimes week to week. The people I write stories with ebb and flow with the years.
But my family is for life. That is a vow I made and that is why what is shared in a family is so special, so unique, so important. It is why I put many things I once enjoyed in single life behind me because they came between me and my wife. It is why I have actually attended Country Music Concerts, as a gift of love to my wife. It is why I desire to be a better man, conquering my vices and my bad habits. Both to honor and love my wife, and to treat her as she should be treated, but now even more potently, to set the right example for my daughter, to bring her joy and love at this most precious and important time, and to help her grow from a child into a woman of strength who knows who she is and all the storm and tempest of the world cannot shake that. I have a responsibility to another human being that is so profound and so deep that it demands more of me than any hobby I could ever undertake, any pursuit I could ever imagine.
That is a frightening and challenging prospect filled with heartache and fear, yes, but also, of great happiness, pride, and joy in another. I am still learning more of what it means to be a father and a husband still, and will continue to learn for the rest of my life I hope!
I repeat; I am not saying that your life is less than mine; we are all called to different things and there is no way that we, from our limited scope could possibly assign grades of value to a man's life. Nor do I think your joy in what you do is somehow less real than my own. And I certainly couldn't say that your joy is less than mine because we can never really know the quality of another man's joy. And there is, yes, a matter of choice here in terms of what joys we receive in life. But there is a qualitative difference between "being a father" and "having a hobby" or "having a job". The most horrible fathers are the ones who treat their fatherhood as a hobby or a job.
I hope that at the very least you can see the distinction I am trying to make here and why, whether or not you agree that the distinction is real. I'm not trying to say my life is better than anybody's, and I certainly don't want to assert that I have made better choices than everyone else (I have made my fair share of bad choices, although I do think I made a few good ones along the way too). I admit, some single people have lived far more profound lives than my own, with fatherhoods, and other relationships of greater significance and lasting impact. I just do not think that from whence my joy springs (fatherhood) can be classed with the things you have mentioned. And the above I hope explains why, and I hope we can at the very least leave it at that.
Dominus tecum
First off, thank you for the well wishing of my family. I greatly appreciate it and it does mean a great deal to me. I hope that in all of your endeavors you are able to find what you seek and what you need, and that you have a great time doing it!
Now, what I understand you trying to say is that just as you will, by your own choice, never know the joys of fatherhood or family life, I will never know the joys of racing cars, or any of the many things that you do.
This is true in a limited sense. I know what thrill sports are like, so even if I have never been into them as much as you have, I am not wholly inexperienced (no race cars though). Your understanding of fatherhood is for the most part vicarious as you have admitted.
There is nothing wrong with being childless or of not desiring children for yourself. I certainly do not mean to imply that there is! In one sense, saying that it is my choice that made adoption even possible for my family is true. But it also depended on my wife's choice. If she had not desired it as well, then my desire would have remained unfulfilled, or I would have had to convince her. In truth, she loves motherhood and it has been a blessing to her in more ways than she could have guessed. That's part of, a tiny part, what I was trying to get at: this was not my decision, my desire, my choice, my responsibility, my blessing, my joy alone.
Joys shared are always greater joys. It's why we go to conventions, furmeets, and the like, so we can enjoy being furry in the company of our fellow furs. It's why I host Rodent panels at cons so I can get the rodents together and share in our common love. It is why you get together with fellow muscle-furs to work out. I do not imagine that your car racing is something you do alone either. These are all joys we can share with others and do share with others. But the others with whom we share them changes all the time. Some of the furs I was closest to when I got into the fandom (back in the early 90s) I do not often see anymore, or in a few cases, see at all. The folks I go bowling with, or sing in the choir with change from year to year, and sometimes week to week. The people I write stories with ebb and flow with the years.
But my family is for life. That is a vow I made and that is why what is shared in a family is so special, so unique, so important. It is why I put many things I once enjoyed in single life behind me because they came between me and my wife. It is why I have actually attended Country Music Concerts, as a gift of love to my wife. It is why I desire to be a better man, conquering my vices and my bad habits. Both to honor and love my wife, and to treat her as she should be treated, but now even more potently, to set the right example for my daughter, to bring her joy and love at this most precious and important time, and to help her grow from a child into a woman of strength who knows who she is and all the storm and tempest of the world cannot shake that. I have a responsibility to another human being that is so profound and so deep that it demands more of me than any hobby I could ever undertake, any pursuit I could ever imagine.
That is a frightening and challenging prospect filled with heartache and fear, yes, but also, of great happiness, pride, and joy in another. I am still learning more of what it means to be a father and a husband still, and will continue to learn for the rest of my life I hope!
I repeat; I am not saying that your life is less than mine; we are all called to different things and there is no way that we, from our limited scope could possibly assign grades of value to a man's life. Nor do I think your joy in what you do is somehow less real than my own. And I certainly couldn't say that your joy is less than mine because we can never really know the quality of another man's joy. And there is, yes, a matter of choice here in terms of what joys we receive in life. But there is a qualitative difference between "being a father" and "having a hobby" or "having a job". The most horrible fathers are the ones who treat their fatherhood as a hobby or a job.
I hope that at the very least you can see the distinction I am trying to make here and why, whether or not you agree that the distinction is real. I'm not trying to say my life is better than anybody's, and I certainly don't want to assert that I have made better choices than everyone else (I have made my fair share of bad choices, although I do think I made a few good ones along the way too). I admit, some single people have lived far more profound lives than my own, with fatherhoods, and other relationships of greater significance and lasting impact. I just do not think that from whence my joy springs (fatherhood) can be classed with the things you have mentioned. And the above I hope explains why, and I hope we can at the very least leave it at that.
Dominus tecum
I do apologize for getting this 'discussion' kicked off over something that should only bring joy to all who see it. I do not believe I am wrong in what my last two posts tried to get across, but I was snarky in the comment prior to that and that was inappropriate. For that I am sorry.
Dominus tecunm
Dominus tecunm
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