Well said! The point of Pokèmon is, if I remember correctly from everything in the game, Pokèmon develope a bond through training, winning, and, yes, losing battles.

Also, how are you supposed to enjoy a game, where your Pokèmon could be fainted by a chance critical hit?


I agree fully and completely with what you said!

Oops, sorry Killer, I meant to comment on the main journal, not on you. Let me just hide that and repost.

That's okay, ^_^

I HATE that challenge, honestly (on top of that how am I supposed to even remotely play that if I get wiped by wendy every time ugh)

Wendy? You mean Whitney, right?

whoops yep that's....wait who's the leader of the goldenrod city gym i'm sure it's name has a w in it but whitney doesn't sound right.

Yup, it's Whitney.

I'll also mention that there's an in-game trade for a Machop in that same town, which I can only assume the creators put there specifically so you could train it to beat the living shit out of Whitney's Miltank.

Well, you've still only got a 25% chance, Machops are still 75% male, and the main challenge with Whitney is that she starts off by using Attract on your (usually) male Pokémon.

My machop was female....but the idiot turned in karate chop (a move which doesn't have set damage) for seismic toss (which doesn't factor in elemental weaknesses or resistances)

This is very moving and touching. I gotally agree with you.

Id actually love to get to know ya if youd oblidge a fox, you are obviously deeper then the fetishes and pokesona 'define you as' :3

If you really want a "challenge", I recommend the Joey challenge. Come to think of it, regarding nuzlockes, that seems to be the way that, say, Damian or Paul would play; once they get defeated, just throw them away.

I don't mind the mono challenges and solo runs so long as they're more of the "you can catch whatever you want but can only use the challenge Pokemon" variety, rather than "you can't catch anything else". The latter still has the same problem with legendaries being killed when they don't need to be.

At least it doesn't explicitly have the rule about not attempting to catch anything except the first pokémon in the area. And the Joey challenge seems perfect for catching legendaries. FEAR comes readily to mind.

You've showed me that nuzlocke nonsense, and I think it's bullshit, as well.

"Oh, my Pokemon died. Radical. A hurr durr!"

To me, the challenge is a little absurd, then again, the pokemon series does have a flaw in it since day one. Why can't you catch KO'ed pokemon anyway? They're not moving and they're not dead, so why just walk on by?

But that's just me.

Nuzlocke has always angered me, and while I realise "to each their own" applies even in that case, I also hate that it's forced on people almost as much as Smogon-style competitive battling. Nuzlocke angers me more than anything else though.

I absolutely love how touching this scene is. Dragga did an amazing job catching Mewtwo's facial expressions.

I personally hate the nuzlocke challenge due to that dying rule, and the catch one per route rule, and the fact that most of the people doing them kill the legendaries. There have been a few times where I was tempted, mainly from reading nuzlocke comics, but I would never do one myself.

If I did do one, which probably wouldn't happen, and if it did, it would be on a rom and not any of my actual games, I would have specific rules. I wouldn't really catch the first Pokémon I see on a route. I'd choose which one to catch after looking up what appears on that route. (Idea gotten from a Nuzlocke comic on here.) Shinies would be an exception to the rule, as I would catch any shiny I see if I get lucky, even if I don't like the Pokémon, and Legendaries are also exceptions. I'd catch them anyways, and I wouldn't have them count towards the one per route rule, or they might if I don't see anything I want in that area. I'd have them be kind of important in a story, in a way, if I make one. I wouldn't kill them.

Some people don't allow trading in their nuzlockes, but I would, mainly to evolve those that evolve by trading.

For the dying rule..... I'd seriously consider having the starter be excluded from that rule, or consider a game over if I do lose it. I really hate losing my starter, and would consider making it immune to the death rule. Depending on how I feel about the Pokémon that die, I'd either release or box them.

One thing I do that's a rule for nuzlockes is nickname my Pokémon. I love doing that, though some of the names might be generic or kind of stupid. The names I give depends on gender, type, and species.

I would count certain areas as more than one area, like the Safari Zone, which has at least six different areas, and Pinwheel Forest in Black and White, and Black 2 and White 2, and Reversal Mountain in Black 2 and White 2, two areas each.

I'm rather picky about the natures and genders of Pokémon, so I would catch several of the same species till I get one with the right nature. For Pokémon that have two abilities listed, sometimes I prefer one more than the other, so I'm a bit picky on that. Sometimes I'm picky about the level, mainly when it comes to the moves they learn.

Then again, I'd probably cheat by restarting whenever I lose a Pokémon, so it wouldn't work out for me anyways. I do that often, but not every time. If I let it happen, then I just head for the nearest Pokémon center to heal, or use a revive if it's during a battle where I'll end up needing that Pokémon, mainly against the Elite Four or the Champion.

In short, I agree with you. I would never do a nuzlocke myself as I really hate them. I don't think that's really how you're supposed to play the game. I would never kill a legendary. I always catch them, and they will get used. If I want a challenge, I would do it another way, like get one Pokémon to a certain level, then train others to that level. In addition to a main team, I train a few others with them, which include legendaries.

Now for a comment related to the picture. It looks very nice. The artist did a very good job. The special Masterball is a very nice touch.

Eh, long comment, but I just wanted to say how I feel about nuzlockes.

Is the part you personally don't like, that a legendary (such as Mewtwo) would be knocked out once and then left alone, rather than beaten up, kidnapped, and likely forced to be knocked out a hundred or more times in trainer feuds, ending any future life this legendary may have been fighting for before it became a pet?
I know I'm probably missing something big.

The difference is that in nuzlocke, every knockout is presumed to be death, both yours and that of opposing trainers. The trainer isn't just going into a cave, knocking out Mewtwo once, and then leaving him be, they're fucking murdering him, and then celebrating it with artwork, and then OTHER people in this same fandom are encouraging and congratulating the person for doing so, which means even more people are going to see that and think it's a good idea to murder legendaries and depict it.

Oh, it is a death thing. I thought about bringing up all of the other crazy stuff the fandom has Mewtwo doing, but the difference is probably that those versions of Mewtwo are always doing these things themselves, willingly. Would it be fine if Mewtwo committed suicide, if he decided to himself for the personally rational reason of simply being into that? Or is death itself the bad thing?

If, for some reason, Mewtwo went emo enough to an hero, I'd begrudgingly accept it.

The issue is more that there's a representation of Mewtwo having something done to him, where he is not willing, and there is no vengeance being taken on his behalf.

In fiction, ideally, I would hope to see Mewtwo is willing and comes out unharmed in things. That's why all of my commisisons involving Mewtwo/a Mewtwo follow those lines.

Failing that, if Mewtwo has to be subjected to something negative, I would rather see him either come out all right in the end (even if it is after many trials and tribulations), or if he must suffer death or some other permanent, negative fate, I would hope to see whoever dealt him that fate have something happen to them, as a direct result of having killed/irreparably harmed Mewtwo, of equal or greater consequence.

I'm in two minds about the nuzlocke thing. I think in the context of being a challenge in a video game, it can have valid ideas. If your attached to pokemon though, it's quite dickish. I couldn't do it myself, because I feel for pokemon (for a few of them somewhat the same as you feel for mewtwo) it does go against the spirit of the world, that pokemon are creatures with feelings and love.

But what really confuses me, is why do people consider legendary's "evil"? Mewtwo at the end of the day was not evil, he just had a bad upbringing. Hell the whole moral of his MOVIE was that upbringings shouldn't determine who you are!

That's the part I don't get.

That's a very closed-minded opinion if you ask me. Also, you're completely missing the point of nuzlockes. It's not like the people are letting their pokémon die just to be jerks are anything, and a nuzlocke challenge doesn't mean they're not still developing bonds with the pokémon they do catch. In fact, some might even say they fell closer to their mons with the risk of death involved.

Also, the whole "killing all legendaries" and "considering all legendaries evil" thing is complete bullshit. Yes, there are plenty of fights against legendaries, and even some where they're considered "bad guys", but never because of senselessness, or for the sake the challenge. There's also plenty of legendaries who get caught in these challenges as well, the only reason mewtwo never is is because he's fought at the end of the run and is often considered the final boss. Besides, each comic is another artist's interpretation of the series that they have every right to share if they want to. You can get mad at a TV show for killing off your favorite character, but you can't say the whole series is evil because of it.

It's perfectly fine if you never want to do anything like that, but you have no right to get mad at others (like me) who do enjoy it. Nuzlockers are no less Pokémon fans than you are. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to enjoy a series, so just relax and keep doing your own thing.

I was wondering when a comment like this would show up.

>some might even say they fell closer to their mons with the risk of death involved.
The fact that it damn near requires that risk for some to feel closer to their Pokemon is what I'm saying is part of the problem in the first place.

> the only reason mewtwo never is is because he's fought at the end of the run and is often considered the final boss.
And this is part of the trend I want to reverse.
Wouldn't it be MORE difficult to have to capture him - sans Master Ball? It's one thing to have grinded up your team enough to survive the fight and be able to knock him out, it's entirely another to have a team powerful enough to endure his attacks AND get him low enough in health AND be able to chuck enough balls at him to score a capture. If people want a challenge, THERE'S your real challenge.

I get that some people have no desire to train legendaries themselves, for whatever reason. However, I will mention that I'm pretty sure that part of the idea behind Pokemon is a sense of community and friendship, and helping one another; and this would mean that for any Pokemon game past the second generation, there should be an ethical obligation to capture whatever Legendaries one comes across, and if the trainer doesn't desire to use them, then they should be thrown up on GTS so someone else who would enjoy having them on their team can do so.

>each comic is another artist's interpretation of the series that they have every right to share if they want to.
And I have the right to bitch about it when a small group of artists, who are unfortunately celebrated within the community (and if you've known of my presence online enough to feel miffed by my stance against nuzlocking, you know exactly who I'm getting at) end up doing so and in turn leads to more people thinking that it's the "right" thing to do.

>You can get mad at a TV show for killing off your favorite character, but you can't say the whole series is evil because of it.
...by your logic, this says I'm completely in the clear to be pissed at every single individual artist who has done and depicted a run in which Mewtwo is killed. That'd be a step back from hating the entire idea but it'd be just as widespread of a level of hate given how many particular artists have done it.

>There is no "right" or "wrong" way to enjoy a series
While things are (except for the names of the 5th gen games) not entirely black and white, there ARE things that those involved with creating the game have said that would lead one to believe they'd disapprove of certain things.

http://www.siliconera.com/2011/07/2.....about-killing/

I'm pretty sure when one of the creators of the series says that he's sad to see so many games focus on death and killing, that he'd be pretty well disgusted that his own creation has been modified to an alternative gameplay method that focuses on permanent death.


If you can show me a nuzlocke that's as celebrated as the original, or any of the other "big names" in the community, where Mewtwo is not only NOT killed, but also not passed over as a plot point, where he ends up doing good rather than evil, with art quality on par with the famous people in that group, then by all means, I'd like to see it. Until then, I still see only negatives as far as my little corner of the world is concerned.

Okay, looking back, I noticed I failed to make a pretty important point, and that is that nuzlockes aren't all about killing. Nuzlocke comics aren't focused solely on death, and that's not what the artists are celebrated for. They're celebrated for they're beautiful artwork and exciting storylines that happen to contain the added challenge. The whole point of there being death is that it raises the stakes and makes it more emotional. Again, you don't have to like it, just don't judge others who do.

I never said anyone required the risk to feel close to their pokémon, I just meant that they can, and they're not doing it to be jerks.

About Mewtwo: a) It's not much of a challenge if you use a master ball, which pretty-much everyone does for him. b) Unless you decide to be cheap and use a shit-ton of repels, he probably won't be the first thing you encounter in Cerulean cave anyway. And c) The point I was trying to make there was the final boss means end of the game. There's not much point to adding a powerful member to your team when you're finished with the run. I get that Mewtwo's your favorite and anything bad happening to him is a big deal to you, but it's not a bad thing to also be able to look at these pokémon as the pieces of data that they are.

>...by your logic, this says I'm completely in the clear to be pissed at every single individual artist who has done and depicted a run in which Mewtwo is killed. That'd be a step back from hating the entire idea but it'd be just as widespread of a level of hate given how many particular artists have done it.
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize that nearly every nuzlocke run takes place in Kanto. either way I said "get mad", not "hate", although I do admit it was probably a bad comparison. I suppose a better one would be, you can't just hate survivor because your favorite contestant got voted of the island.

The death may not be what's celebrated, but the problem is they're still being celebrated period.


>a) It's not much of a challenge if you use a master ball, which pretty-much everyone does for him

For those that do, the challenge was getting through the Elite Four and Champion, and acquiring Mewtwo is a statement rather than a challenge.

>b) Unless you decide to be cheap and use a shit-ton of repels, he probably won't be the first thing you encounter in Cerulean cave anyway.

This is exactly why the repels are there. Should I ever decide to do a challenge run as a "you're doing it wrong" to the community at large, you bet your ass it would be forcing Mewtwo to be the first encounter.

>c) The point I was trying to make there was the final boss means end of the game. There's not much point to adding a powerful member to your team when you're finished with the run. I get that Mewtwo's your favorite and anything bad happening to him is a big deal to you, but it's not a bad thing to also be able to look at these pokémon as the pieces of data that they are.

The people that do these runs look at their Pokemon as more than pieces of data. They allow themselves to be engrossed in the storyline. They feel what the player in-game feels, as far as the plotline they've laid out for their run. When they decide to go into that last fight, if they're killing Mewtwo, then most likely there's actual malice behind it. And the more people that do it in runs that get popular, the more it's going to happen.


I'm gonna tell you right now that barring a new nuzlocke run, being better than the original AND all of the major known runs that involve Kanto and a Mewtwo death, that deliberately doesn't kill Mewtwo AND makes him an important plot point on the side of good, I'm never going to feel any peace with the gameplay method as a whole. If Mewtwo's appearance in the new film is amazing, AND he becomes playable in Smash 4, then I can safely ignore nuzlocke at that point and not feel threatened by it, because there's visible proof that the fanwork of him being killed in such runs would not be having a negative effect on what the people that make official canon decide to do with him - but even then, there'd still be a lot of vengeance against Mewtwo that there hasn't been proper retribution for.

Thats why you capture the mewtwo and take em home for snuggles and brushing. Then a few steps latter you rule the world with a bad-ass mon by your side. whee!

Well, this has 2 sides to it.

On one side, it's a great challenge for experience trainers who know when to use certain strategies or Pokemon to avert critical hits, or just minimize them so they're not that harmful.
On the other side, it's far too popular because now people belittle regular players who are genuinely really good. If you can't stand to lose, then maybe gaming isn't for you. "Being that damn good" isn't a good enough excuse to shove it down people's throats. (They know who they are.)

I think it's just masochistic, serving no other purpose than to feel good about yourself. It's not so much a challenge as much as it is sticking a knife in your hand and seeing how long you can go without a sound.

I'd also like to add I agree with the fact bonding shouldn't come from risk, it should come from reward so to speak.

When I got my female Totodile at the start of HGSS, I named it after one of my reptiles who died the morning earlier. To this day, she's my lead pokemon, no matter her odds of winning. She's just that damn good in my eyes. I've seen her take critical hits from electric attacks and keep fighting.

I hate the idea of nuzlock challenges, but I do try a different type of playing pokemon. Usually in a game, I try to catch every type of pokemon, and since I can't ever really bond with all of them, most end up unused in the box. So, instead, I play by trying to catch only six pokemon of different types, then naming them, and bonding with them. I will never catch any more pokemon then six, since I will be able to bond better with all my pokemon that way. Sure I'll not be able to catch legendaries, but in the end, I'm happy with the way I play :3